2023 BOA Grand National Championships (Nov. 9-11)

[BandNerd07]

Real quick, I just wanted to say great job to everyone who performed in finals last night. While I am a little disappointed in the three TX bands that barely missed finals, I am happy for everyone for their accomplishments this season. 2023 was really just that year for marching band IMO. I wanna see Carolina Crown and McAdams HS in GNats next year.

[DankBOA]

57 minutes ago, slowbrass said:

This is some truly idle speculation, but this season marks the 8th time that Hebron has worn their gray pinstriped unis. Since the school opened in 1999 they've changed their look about every 8 years or so. Wonder if they’ll keep to that schedule, although the current uniforms have become so closely associated with their identity I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t.

I've confirmed with current students and yes they are changing their uniforms for next year (2024 season)

[Tubalord11]

1 hour ago, DankBOA said:

I've confirmed with current students and yes they are changing their uniforms for next year (2024 season)

Dang, I was hoping they'd keep them, not against the change but I LOVE The look of their current uniforms, though I have no doubt the new ones will look even better! 

[clarinetistkai05]

I’ve said this already, but only way I am heading to Indianapolis is when Forney makes the trip. All I can say in regards to Forney heading to Grand Nationals is that it’s coming soon. I hope it’s by time I finish my undergrad and head to Law School because then the trip will be less expensive (hopefully 😭).

[DankBOA]

2025 is looking pretty stacked so far, so ill probably go then

Speculated:

1. FloMo
2. CTJ
3. Woodlands

[clarinetistkai05]

8 minutes ago, DankBOA said:

2025 is looking pretty stacked so far, so ill probably go then

Speculated:

1. FloMo
2. CTJ
3. Woodlands

Friendswood is raising money to make the trip apparently. Idk if it’s confirmed, but that’s what someone told me.

[APersonFromABand]

2 hours ago, slowbrass said:

This is some truly idle speculation, but this season marks the 8th time that Hebron has worn their gray pinstriped unis. Since the school opened in 1999 they've changed their look about every 8 years or so. Wonder if they’ll keep to that schedule, although the current uniforms have become so closely associated with their identity I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t.

Bro has spoilers

[Keenoid]

2 hours ago, DankBOA said:

2025 is looking pretty stacked so far, so ill probably go then

Speculated:

1. FloMo
2. CTJ
3. Woodlands

I think Marcus is due to go to GN in 2025 also. 

[LeanderMomma]

2 hours ago, clarinetistkai05 said:

I’ve said this already, but only way I am heading to Indianapolis is when Forney makes the trip. All I can say in regards to Forney heading to Grand Nationals is that it’s coming soon. I hope it’s by time I finish my undergrad and head to Law School because then the trip will be less expensive (hopefully 😭).

Going to GN as a spectator for the first time is an experience I can’t even fully describe!  I went the first time myself when Leander attended in 2016 and my band kiddo was a Senior and that was amazing for sure, but even better was taking her back to GN in 2019 as a spectator when Leander went back. She had amazing experiences both as a performer and as a spectator!  I do hope both you and Forney will be attending GN very soon!!

[BassDr.]

Quite interesting that all of the Texas bands dropped scores in finals. I definitely didn't think Hebron was that far behind Carmel and Avon, even if they should have gotten third. 

[urmom292]

Kinda off topic but dripping springs guard was quite fantastic in both of their runs at GN. They might be a bit small but they are really really good. I am looking forward to seeing their winterguard shows this winter season.

[clarinetistkai05]

2 hours ago, LeanderMomma said:

Going to GN as a spectator for the first time is an experience I can’t even fully describe!  I went the first time myself when Leander attended in 2016 and my band kiddo was a Senior and that was amazing for sure, but even better was taking her back to GN in 2019 as a spectator when Leander went back. She had amazing experiences both as a performer and as a spectator!  I do hope both you and Forney will be attending GN very soon!!

I’m hoping Forney will go, and I’ll be there as a spectator cheering. It hurts a lot that my experience is over, but I hope they can continue to get better and better. I know last years seniors were telling me, “We leave for one year, and y’all took 4th in state.” It made me teary eyed.

[tx._eli.04]

Anyone know if there's a chance of seeing Vandegrift at grand nationals next year?

[itsstephenyo]

2 hours ago, BassDr. said:

Quite interesting that all of the Texas bands dropped scores in finals. I definitely didn't think Hebron was that far behind Carmel and Avon, even if they should have gotten third. 

I didn't think they were over a point back, either. After the 2nd block of finals, I had it as Avon, Carmel, Hebron, TWHS. Avon's show was stunning. 

[Rubisco]

Congrats to Avon! They were great! And congrats to Harloff on a very successful first season as head director!

My rankings after watching finals on high cam were Carmel, The Woodlands, Hebron, then Avon, albeit all of them quite close to each other. Needless to say I was quite surprised by the final gaps!

Carmel was pure elegance, yet again. They produce lush sounds and shape long, beautiful phrases. People underestimate how difficult that is! There's an unmatched attention to detail musically and visually, even if the content doesn't connect with a broader audience and is more cerebral. Their visual performance was quite pristine in finals as well. The guard in particular gave their best performance of the season. I don't think I saw a single drop! The ballad was of course goosebumps central, with that gorgeous, diaphanous blue fabric that was pulled out over the band. The show was a fully formed diamond, just exquisite.

The Woodlands show was absolutely thrilling, musically and visually. The show is a real stunner visually -- crystal clear from both the band and the guard, the staging also developing in clear, logical, and creative ways. The 19.7 they received in semifinals from John Howell for visual effect was the accurate score for them in that caption. Their weakness relative to the top was in musicianship and exploring a fuller range of moods and musical colors. Also, to a degree, in trying something new, given the similarities to the Blue Devils 1994 show.

Hebron was of course dazzling musically. There was no other band in all of finals that could match their virtuosity. The showmanship of it all! As others have pointed out, fantastic music performances often bleed into music effect. I was a bit surprised that didn't happen as much here, but it's hard to know what the judges will react to emotionally and intellectually. Alas, as we all know by now, judges don't care much about general audience reaction. Visually, I thought Hebron's show was the weakest of the four by quite a bit from a perspective of pure cleanliness -- the guard in particular was a bit distracting with their ensemble flag timing throughout -- but their designers also challenge their members with lots of simultaneous responsibilities and difficult drill.

Avon was wearing costumes that looked like track suits for a reason. They just fly around the field. They take off right in the beginning and rarely let up. There's a lot of excitement here, musically and visually. The ending was particularly strong with the recapitulation of the main theme and the picture frames coming together in a jumbled but appealing mess. Purple, of course, works well on the green field, and provides a nice aesthetic pop. The arrangement of Pictures was also refreshing, unlike any we've heard before.  Finals, however, didn't actually seem like Avon's strongest run, with a bit of flagging energy and some noticeable visual dirt, ensemble flag issues, and some exposed drops. But, again, challenges are a bigger part of the visual sheets than they used to be, and that's likely where Avon shined.

An honorable mention to Blue Springs. Like I said earlier, it's extremely rare for me to see a show with a concept that I've never seen before, even if I found the narration a little cheesy and trite. (Platitudes like "in an ocean darkness" and "there will never be anybody quite like you" abounded.) They gave a great performance, albeit not one that warranted a 4th place finish.

Obviously, I disagreed a bit with the finals panel. It wasn't the first time, and it won't be the last. What concerns me more, however, is the reaction I'm seeing to the results from people in Texas. It's not just on these forums, with the (sometimes sort of humorous) accusations of conflicts of interest among BOA's adjudication community; it's also on other chats I'm privy to featuring quite a lot of current educators and some judges. I'm hearing complaints about music being de-valued, about how it's no longer Music for All but Aesthetics for All, which is probably my favorite. 😄

There has even been talk among these educators of Texas bands divesting themselves of BOA -- sort of like how the Midwest Combine broke off prior to the formation of DCI. For me, this is a bit too much like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If there are issues, directors ought to try working with BOA first to fix them. Meanwhile, the advisory panel needs to take recommendations seriously. A good starting place might be to revise any policies regarding conflicts of interest. I would also recommend the use of double adjuducation panels in major events, like in DCI and WGI, to try to help reduce major shifts between rounds and to get more of an "average judge" perspective, whatever that is. Music already counts for most of the score, but maybe including fine-line performance to a greater degree in the effect captions is in order.

But here's the thing: so much of the reason why Texas bands struggle against the National competition has nothing at all to do with BOA and everything to do with TEA and their regulations. With the limited rehearsal time before August, in addition to the 8 hour rule throughout the season, Texas bands are limited both by How well they perform their shows and What they're able to field and reasonably clean. Do you see what I did there? The rules affect success in both the "What" and the "How" halves of the judging sheets. Those arguing otherwise are disingenuous -- well, either that, or I have a bridge to sell them. ("Not being able to rehearse twice as long as 8 hours a week totally has no effect on how Texas bands do! Derp derp!" 😄) Anyway, the point remains, a lot of this issue is because of Texas itself, not BOA.

But be careful what you wish for, folks! You might miss only having to rehearse 8 hours a week! 😉

[packwick]

36 minutes ago, Rubisco said:

Congrats to Avon! They were great! And congrats to Harloff on a very successful first season as head director!

My rankings after watching finals on high cam were Carmel, The Woodlands, Hebron, then Avon, albeit all of them quite close to each other. Needless to say I was quite surprised by the final gaps!

Carmel was pure elegance, yet again. They produce lush sounds and shape long, beautiful phrases. People underestimate how difficult that is! There's an unmatched attention to detail musically and visually, even if the content doesn't connect with a broader audience and is more cerebral. Their visual performance was quite pristine in finals as well. The guard in particular gave their best performance of the season. I don't think I saw a single drop! The ballad was of course goosebumps central, with that gorgeous, diaphanous blue fabric that was pulled out over the band. The show was a fully formed diamond, just exquisite.

The Woodlands show was absolutely thrilling, musically and visually. The show is a real stunner visually -- crystal clear from both the band and the guard, the staging also developing in clear, logical, and creative ways. The 19.7 they received in semifinals from John Howell for visual effect was the accurate score for them in that caption. Their weakness relative to the top was in musicianship and exploring a fuller range of moods and musical colors. Also, to a degree, in trying something new, given the similarities to the Blue Devils 1994 show.

Hebron was of course dazzling musically. There was no other band in all of finals that could match their virtuosity. The showmanship of it all! As others have pointed out, fantastic music performances often bleed into music effect. I was a bit surprised that didn't happen as much here, but it's hard to know what the judges will react to emotionally and intellectually. Alas, as we all know by now, judges don't care much about general audience reaction. Visually, I thought Hebron's show was the weakest of the four by quite a bit from a perspective of pure cleanliness -- the guard in particular was a bit distracting with their ensemble flag timing throughout -- but their designers also challenge their members with lots of simultaneous responsibilities and difficult drill.

Avon was wearing costumes that looked like track suits for a reason. They just fly around the field. They take off right in the beginning and rarely let up. There's a lot of excitement here, musically and visually. The ending was particularly strong with the recapitulation of the main theme and the picture frames coming together in a jumbled but appealing mess. Purple, of course, works well on the green field, and provides a nice aesthetic pop. The arrangement of Pictures was also refreshing, unlike any we've heard before.  Finals, however, didn't actually seem like Avon's strongest run, with a bit of flagging energy and some noticeable visual dirt, ensemble flag issues, and some exposed drops. But, again, challenges are a bigger part of the visual sheets than they used to be, and that's likely where Avon shined.

An honorable mention to Blue Springs. Like I said earlier, it's extremely rare for me to see a show with a concept that I've never seen before, even if I found the narration a little cheesy and trite. (Platitudes like "in an ocean darkness" and "there will never be anybody quite like you" abounded.) They gave a great performance, albeit not one that warranted a 4th place finish.

Obviously, I disagreed a bit with the finals panel. It wasn't the first time, and it won't be the last. What concerns me more, however, is the reaction I'm seeing to the results from people in Texas. It's not just on these forums, with the (sometimes sort of humorous) accusations of conflicts of interest among BOA's adjudication community; it's also on other chats I'm privy to featuring quite a lot of current educators and some judges. I'm hearing complaints about music being de-valued, about how it's no longer Music for All but Aesthetics for All, which is probably my favorite. 😄

There has even been talk among these educators of Texas bands divesting themselves of BOA -- sort of like how the Midwest Combine broke off prior to the formation of DCI. For me, this is a bit too much like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If there are issues, directors ought to try working with BOA first to fix them. Meanwhile, the advisory panel needs to take recommendations seriously. A good starting place might be to revise any policies regarding conflicts of interest. I would also recommend the use of double adjuducation panels in major events, like in DCI and WGI, to try to help reduce major shifts between rounds and to get more of an "average judge" perspective, whatever that is. Music already counts for most of the score, but maybe including fine-line performance to a greater degree in the effect captions is in order.

But here's the thing: so much of the reason why Texas bands struggle against the National competition has nothing at all to do with BOA and everything to do with TEA and their regulations. With the limited rehearsal time before August, in addition to the 8 hour rule throughout the season, Texas bands are limited both by How well they perform their shows and What they're able to field and reasonably clean. Do you see what I did there? The rules affect success in both the "What" and the "How" halves of the judging sheets. Those arguing otherwise are disingenuous -- well, either that, or I have a bridge to sell them. ("Not being able to rehearse twice as long as 8 hours a week totally has no effect on how Texas bands do! Derp derp!" 😄) Anyway, the point remains, a lot of this issue is because of Texas itself, not BOA.

But be careful what you wish for, folks! You might miss only having to rehearse 8 hours a week! 😉

💯 as always

[Nny14]

I feel like we need a new LD Bell. A top tier Texas program that is willing to head up to Nationals year after year to compete. That will probably be the most realistic chance of Texas winning it all more consistently. Because let's be real, they're not moving Nationals to Texas, or Kansas or whatever location you might come up with. Indy is the place and Lucas Oil is the perfect stadium. The Woodlands are the closest thing we have to that right now. Round Rock also has a consistent propensity for going but they're still building their overall design up despite being a great playing band.

[lost]

32 minutes ago, Nny14 said:

I feel like we need a new LD Bell. A top tier Texas program that is willing to head up to Nationals year after year to compete. That will probably be the most realistic chance of Texas winning it all more consistently. Because let's be real, they're not moving Nationals to Texas, or Kansas or whatever location you might come up with. Indy is the place and Lucas Oil is the perfect stadium. The Woodlands are the closest thing we have to that right now. Round Rock also has a consistent propensity for going but they're still building their overall design up despite being a great playing band.

This won’t happen. Nationals has become prohibitively more expensive in the last twenty years.

[Rubisco]

1 hour ago, Nny14 said:

I feel like we need a new LD Bell. A top tier Texas program that is willing to head up to Nationals year after year to compete. That will probably be the most realistic chance of Texas winning it all more consistently. Because let's be real, they're not moving Nationals to Texas, or Kansas or whatever location you might come up with. Indy is the place and Lucas Oil is the perfect stadium. The Woodlands are the closest thing we have to that right now. Round Rock also has a consistent propensity for going but they're still building their overall design up despite being a great playing band.

Yet even when LD Bell went 6 years in a row, during an era when they were regularly either the best band in the state or 2nd best to Marcus, they only won Nationals once. It's just really, really hard.

[crunchycookie3]

8 hours ago, Nny14 said:

I feel like we need a new LD Bell. A top tier Texas program that is willing to head up to Nationals year after year to compete. That will probably be the most realistic chance of Texas winning it all more consistently. Because let's be real, they're not moving Nationals to Texas, or Kansas or whatever location you might come up with. Indy is the place and Lucas Oil is the perfect stadium. The Woodlands are the closest thing we have to that right now. Round Rock also has a consistent propensity for going but they're still building their overall design up despite being a great playing band.

It also wasn’t cheap when Bell did it, and likely contributed to an inability to keep up with the rest of the playing field financially. As Houston keeps growing, TWHS needs to pace themselves rather than go year after year. The true best solution is just to move Nats to a neutral state that isn’t packed with finalists (probably move it to STL) but that would be the LAST thing BOA would ever do. In the meantime, all we can do is hope that some of the Indy bands and Blue Springs decide to head down to San Antonio every once in a while.

[GeekBoy54]

15 hours ago, tx._eli.04 said:

Anyone know if there's a chance of seeing Vandegrift at grand nationals next year?

I'm friends with someone at Vandegrift, they do not plan on returning next year.

[pancake]

does anyone have any recipes of high cams from finals

[Vidal28]

18 hours ago, Rubisco said:

But here's the thing: so much of the reason why Texas bands struggle against the National competition has nothing at all to do with BOA and everything to do with TEA and their regulations. With the limited rehearsal time before August, in addition to the 8 hour rule throughout the season, Texas bands are limited both by How well they perform their shows and What they're able to field and reasonably clean. Do you see what I did there? The rules affect success in both the "What" and the "How" halves of the judging sheets. Those arguing otherwise are disingenuous -- well, either that, or I have a bridge to sell them. ("Not being able to rehearse twice as long as 8 hours a week totally has no effect on how Texas bands do! Derp derp!" 😄) Anyway, the point remains, a lot of this issue is because of Texas itself, not BOA.

I just wanted to address this part, mainly due to how easily some folks in other forums brush off your last point and think that the disparity in time between bands for show preparation is a poor excuse for how results pan out. The august 1st rule is imo, more impactful than the 8-hour rule. The argument here isn’t to say that Texas bands would just be cleaner with more time, but considerably so on the visual side, there are much more impactful restrictions on the time allowed to rehearse at the most crucial period of the season, the very beginning.

Bands don’t have limitations on what they can do for music preparation, but you still have to be able to train kids their visual fundamentals and build up other concepts amongst the marchers and guard. Over time, if schools were able to decide the amount they wish to rehearse, you would see bands become more adventurous in all aspects of visual design, and also diversifying more so in their capabilities and presentations musically as well.
More programs would be able to get more hours in with guards notably so too where you would see improvement over time, more investment and confidence in other endeavors like Winter/Spring indoor would be much more widespread as well without these limitations. At least that’s my opinion, I’ve just seen the discussion be reduced to Texas folks complaining about “8-hour rule” excuse-making when there’s much more to the discussion regarding the various rules’ effects on Texas groups that in my opinion, are considerable.

[JazzRun]

On 11/13/2023 at 6:15 PM, Vidal28 said:

I just wanted to address this part, mainly due to how easily some folks in other forums brush off your last point and think that the disparity in time between bands for show preparation is a poor excuse for how results pan out. The august 1st rule is imo, more impactful than the 8-hour rule. The argument here isn’t to say that Texas bands would just be cleaner with more time, but considerably so on the visual side, there are much more impactful restrictions on the time allowed to rehearse at the most crucial period of the season, the very beginning.

Bands don’t have limitations on what they can do for music preparation, but you still have to be able to train kids their visual fundamentals and build up other concepts amongst the marchers and guard. Over time, if schools were able to decide the amount they wish to rehearse, you would see bands become more adventurous in all aspects of visual design, and also diversifying more so in their capabilities and presentations musically as well.
More programs would be able to get more hours in with guards notably so too where you would see improvement over time, more investment and confidence in other endeavors like Winter/Spring indoor would be much more widespread as well without these limitations. At least that’s my opinion, I’ve just seen the discussion be reduced to Texas folks complaining about “8-hour rule” excuse-making when there’s much more to the discussion regarding the various rules’ effects on Texas groups that in my opinion, are considerable.

I agree, and appreciate your explanation of this. I saw that the UIL approved an increase in visual fundamental time from 10 to 15 hours for 2024. This still seems so restrictive!

[stix]

10 minutes ago, JazzRun said:

I agree, and appreciate your explanation of this. I saw that the UIL approved an increase in visual fundamental time from 10 to 15 hours for 2024. This still seems so restrictive!

I was not aware of the 10 hour visual rule. Is there a link to the explanation or would you be open to explaining a bit more on the detail of the rule.