2023 BOA Grand National Championships (Nov. 9-11)

[Vidal28]

2 hours ago, WoodlandsMom4ever said:

common English translation?  
 

I have similar thoughts to what has been stated.  I wouldn’t want the 8 hour rule to go away.   I don’t have to worry about it anymore- but I do think it’s important for kids to have time to be well rounded with multiple things they do and are interested in- and school is just one of those things.  The pressure academically is so much when you have large schools.  You can be smart- incredibly smart and taking advanced classes and getting a’s… and still not be in the top 30% of your class.  
 

8 hours of practice does not mean just 8 hours of band per week.  It’s 8 hours of after school practice- 5 days with about an hour of in class fundamentals (music or skills- no drill because their marching pad is covered in students cars). A football game that takes the entire day after school till almost midnight  by the time they head home- sometimes on a Thursday with school the next day (sure 1 hour afterschool they are “off” but they are all at school- there’s no going home and coming back those days). Then the competition weekends thankfully are limited- because that’s the entire Saturday.  
 

The 8 hour rule is for all sports and extracurriculars in Texas.  Because Texas is competitive like no other place I’ve lived. (And I’ve lived in east/south/west states- 9 total) if it were to be taken away it would only make students lives harder and harder to balance.  

I’ve definitely shifted away my advocacy for an 8-hour rule change and more so think the limiting restrictions on the combined August 1st/10 hr visual instruction rule is something that I think should be loosened more. It’s a lot more arbitrary and less explicable than the 8-hour rule in my opinion. The position I have and advocate for wouldn’t mean uniform increases in summer band demand across the board, just more choice and variation in how programs decide how the time for their ensemble will be spent. I think that’s more reasonable in the summertime, I also advocate and stress for student safety and would want programs who embark on increases in summer band loads to ensure that students aren’t negatively affected by the more grueling summers we’ve been having lately, as much of that additional activity to be indoors, especially when it’s visual training.

I would definitely agree that with large schools, successful schools especially that everything has more of a time commitment, athletics, fine arts, academics, boatloads of extracurriculars that divide students’ attention every way, we can only imagine how many hours it takes to make that Woodlands machine hum like it does, students are only taking on more nowadays. Really makes you wonder how other schools make it to where weekend rehearsals during marching season, lengthier band camps are received.

[FEDude]

I suspect the law of decreasing marginal returns would come into effect after 8 hours. Would a Texas band be able to put up a visual package that can compete with Avon or Broken Arrow? I think they could and have with the time restriction. Is the time per week really what's holding Texas back visually? I'm not personally convinced. 

LD Bell's and Reagan's shows from the 2000 proved Texas can do demanding drill with an 8 hour restriction. TWHS has stunning guard work every season. I personally think Reagan would've swept every caption had they gone to nats in 2019. I think the answer is prioritizing the visual package more than is currently done.

Also, relating more closely to the discussion, the 8 hour rule kept me sane in high school. My grades were not the best, I wasn't in any other extracurricular activity, and I only squeaked out 5 hours of sleep a night. There are a lot of people that managed their time more effectively, and at many schools the valedictorian is often a band kid. At my school though, from my graduating class of 700, not a single active band kid (there was one that quit earlier in high school) was in the top 10. I don't regret being in band. It enriched my life in a great way. I'm glad rehearsals were limited to 8 hours though (considering my Fridays and Saturdays were taken up by football games and competitions). 

Edited November 22, 2023 by FEDude
Added a bit for relevancy

[tubapop]

16 hours ago, lost said:

Other states have been doing this for years, to take away the educational experience of an increase in having to be taught to manage responsibilities it is puzzling to advocate for that.

It's not puzzling at all. My children are high achievers. They are in as many AP and honors classes as their schedules will allow. They go to bed at midnight and wake at 5am every single day, and sometimes my son goes to bed at 2am, wakes at 5am, and sneaks in a nap during the day. At the end of the semester, during finals, they are so stressed they eventually break down sobbing. I encourage them to take fewer honors classes but they refuse. My daughter spends countless hours practicing in band, attending football games, going to contests. The week of 6a state/boasa was rough on her because she was gone for nearly an entire school week, then fell sick and missed more school, and had to make it all up without missing the NEW material that was being taught. 

I don't know if Lost and Hardcorebandfan have children, but if you're a parent, part of your job is teaching your children healthy ways to cope with stress and maintain good mental health. And that often means saying no to things to simplify your life. So yeah, I agree that teaching them to juggle a lot of balls at once is a valuable life skill, but another valuable life skill is understanding when you are at your limit and slashing things from your life that are diminishing your mental health. 

 

[Hard Core Band Fan]

1 hour ago, tubapop said:

I don't know if Lost and Hardcorebandfan have children, but if you're a parent, part of your job is teaching your children healthy ways to cope with stress and maintain good mental health. And that often means saying no to things to simplify your life. So yeah, I agree that teaching them to juggle a lot of balls at once is a valuable life skill, but another valuable life skill is understanding when you are at your limit and slashing things from your life that are diminishing your mental health. 

Thanks for the parenting advice! I am an old man and my children went through band programs before the generation that needed cry closets and safe spaces. I wasn't really disagreeing with what you guys were posting about, but the fact that you couldn't have anyone have a different opinion from your own. Anyone that even appears to disagree with you is a bad person or a bad parent. My kids, now thriving and productive adults, were/are tough and can handle what life dishes out for them. That is really my only point. Life is hard and not fair and difficult. I find it so amusing that so many people only respect people who agree with them. Actually, it's just pitiful.

[tubapop]

35 minutes ago, Hard Core Band Fan said:

Thanks for the parenting advice! I am an old man and my children went through band programs before the generation that needed cry closets and safe spaces. I wasn't really disagreeing with what you guys were posting about, but the fact that you couldn't have anyone have a different opinion from your own. Anyone that even appears to disagree with you is a bad person or a bad parent. My kids, now thriving and productive adults, were/are tough and can handle what life dishes out for them. That is really my only point. Life is hard and not fair and difficult. I find it so amusing that so many people only respect people who agree with them. Actually, it's just pitiful.

You're reading quite a bit into what have been pretty objective, thoughtful replies. I (and as far as I can tell, the others who agree with me) haven't once criticized your parenting methods or your views. I mentioned I didn't like the idea of loosening the 8 hour rule in my first post, and in my second post, I gave more details as to why. At no point have I expressed an inability to appreciate other points of view, nor have I accused anyone of being a bad parent, nor have I said or implied I disrespected you. But you have been heaping scorn upon the rest of us, for some unknown reason. 

[Hard Core Band Fan]

1 hour ago, tubapop said:

You're reading quite a bit into what have been pretty objective, thoughtful replies. I (and as far as I can tell, the others who agree with me) haven't once criticized your parenting methods or your views. I mentioned I didn't like the idea of loosening the 8 hour rule in my first post, and in my second post, I gave more details as to why. At no point have I expressed an inability to appreciate other points of view, nor have I accused anyone of being a bad parent, nor have I said or implied I disrespected you. But you have been heaping scorn upon the rest of us, for some unknown reason. 

Thanks for making my point. Couldn't have done it better myself.

[LeanderMomma]

I. Am. So. Freakin. Confused. 

I think the 8 hour rule is pretty useful. I think Texas bands can still achieve incredible heights within the current UIL restrictions even. I also am ok with people agreeing and disagreeing with that opinion. I am however, at a complete loss as to where this entire topic disintegrated into absolute chaos. 
 

[utee94]

4 hours ago, tubapop said:

You're reading quite a bit into what have been pretty objective, thoughtful replies. I (and as far as I can tell, the others who agree with me) haven't once criticized your parenting methods or your views. I mentioned I didn't like the idea of loosening the 8 hour rule in my first post, and in my second post, I gave more details as to why. At no point have I expressed an inability to appreciate other points of view, nor have I accused anyone of being a bad parent, nor have I said or implied I disrespected you. But you have been heaping scorn upon the rest of us, for some unknown reason. 

This is the strangest bit, I just don't understand the immediate and unnecessary snap to an aggressively defensive posture.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughtful responses, and I've echoed them with my own sentiments.  As I stated before, there are most certainly other opinions out there, and that's what sparks open discussion.  

[LeanderMomma]

1 minute ago, utee94 said:

This is the strangest bit, I just don't understand the immediate and unnecessary snap to an aggressively defensive posture.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughtful responses, and I've echoed them with my own sentiments.  As I stated before, there are most certainly other opinions out there, and that's what sparks open discussion.  

I just feel like something got lost in translation somewhere along the way.  😳

[utee94]

6 minutes ago, LeanderMomma said:

I. Am. So. Freakin. Confused. 

I think the 8 hour rule is pretty useful. I think Texas bands can still achieve incredible heights within the current UIL restrictions even. I also am ok with people agreeing and disagreeing with that opinion. I am however, at a complete loss as to where this entire topic disintegrated into absolute chaos. 
 

Dunno.  A few of us stated an opinion in support of the 8-hour rule, and outlined our reasoning why.

It seems like others may disagree with supporting that rule, but nobody's stated anything specific about how or why, so I'm completely lost as to what the dissenting opinion might be.

[lost]

11 hours ago, tubapop said:

It's not puzzling at all. My children are high achievers. They are in as many AP and honors classes as their schedules will allow. They go to bed at midnight and wake at 5am every single day, and sometimes my son goes to bed at 2am, wakes at 5am, and sneaks in a nap during the day. At the end of the semester, during finals, they are so stressed they eventually break down sobbing. I encourage them to take fewer honors classes but they refuse. My daughter spends countless hours practicing in band, attending football games, going to contests. The week of 6a state/boasa was rough on her because she was gone for nearly an entire school week, then fell sick and missed more school, and had to make it all up without missing the NEW material that was being taught. 

I don't know if Lost and Hardcorebandfan have children, but if you're a parent, part of your job is teaching your children healthy ways to cope with stress and maintain good mental health. And that often means saying no to things to simplify your life. So yeah, I agree that teaching them to juggle a lot of balls at once is a valuable life skill, but another valuable life skill is understanding when you are at your limit and slashing things from your life that are diminishing your mental health. 

 

Do not appreciate the ad hominem attack, also do not appreciate the insinuation children in other states aren’t high achievers. I’m sorry for your plight and I hope you will do what is individually best for your family.

[tubapop]

18 minutes ago, lost said:

Do not appreciate the ad hominem attack, also do not appreciate the insinuation children in other states aren’t high achievers. I’m sorry for your plight and I hope you will do what is individually best for your family.

I've re-read it 5 times now and can't find an attack on you, but I do apologize if there is one. Let's all move on. 

[packwick]

LOL. is this the 2023 BOA GN thread or a dumpster fire??

5 hours ago, utee94 said:

Dunno.  A few of us stated an opinion in support of the 8-hour rule, and outlined our reasoning why.

It seems like others may disagree with supporting that rule, but nobody's stated anything specific about how or why, so I'm completely lost as to what the dissenting opinion might be.

there was some discussion a couple pages back about how the 8 hr rule handicaps TX bands competitively when they compete against the best at Nats, whiiich it definitely does, assuuuming all that extra time is used productively, which it might not be lol. for example last season for WGI i accessed Avon's calendar out of curiosity and saw that for that particular week their world guard was rehearsing 17 hours.

ofc the question is, do you want to rehearse 17 hours a week? dunno, lol. i think the life/band balance question is legitimate, tho out of staters seem to manage it okay.

actually now that i think about it, i managed it too. during 2 of my 4 marching seasons we had concert band rehearsals in addition to marching rehearsals, to prep for a couple of international band clinics *wink wink*. sooo that was like an extra sectional during the week plus a lengthy Saturday or Sunday full band rehearsal every week. stressful af but i wouldn't have traded it for anything, gave me the opportunity to rehearse w/ ppl like Richard Crain, Matthew McInturf, whose kid played oboe in our band lol, Mr. Eddie Green (shudder, extra Mr. Green days, myyyy favorite), that fun passionate old Armenian guy (Begian, i thiiink was his name?), blah blah blah. also still somehow came out near the top of my class and aced 13 AP exams + the SAT/ACT, and two of those AP tests i self studied for w/o even taking the class. yes im bragging lol.

buuuut it really depends on what the kid wants and what the teachers can tolerate. not everyone's the same.

[Rubisco]

3 hours ago, packwick said:

LOL. is this the 2023 BOA GN thread or a dumpster fire??

It's my fault for bringing up the Texas rules. The Firestarter. 😄

3 hours ago, packwick said:

that fun passionate old Armenian guy (Begian, i thiiink was his name?), blah blah blah. 

Correct. Harry Begian is the name you're looking for. Legendary band director of Cass Technical High School in Michigan, back when the Midwest was more of a hotspot for quality concert band programs. A very passionate man, indeed!

[11BandMan11]

On 11/22/2023 at 8:58 PM, packwick said:

LOL. is this the 2023 BOA GN thread or a dumpster fire??

*Insert popcorn eating gif here* 
Lol 🤣

[NEPats]

I know this wasn't the thread for this but I'll plunk it down here anyways. Round Rock will have a different look next season. They are transitioning to a dance company. Alissa Jones will head the new dance company. She was the Dragonette director for 9 years. The new dance company will be called Dragon Fire. The current guard will still have their winter guard season. 

[Tubalord11]

2 hours ago, NEPats said:

I know this wasn't the thread for this but I'll plunk it down here anyways. Round Rock will have a different look next season. They are transitioning to a dance company. Alissa Jones will head the new dance company. She was the Dragonette director for 9 years. The new dance company will be called Dragon Fire. The current guard will still have their winterguard season. Also, the band will have new uniforms. They will look like the last but apparently the all black uniforms caused visual issues. The new one will be of the same design only white with maroon and silver.

Can't wait to see this new look from them! 

[Tubalord11]

1 hour ago, Tubalord11 said:

Can't wait to see this new look from them! 

Although I've seen on social media that many students in the guard, as well as parents and other folk are against the idea of the dance company, which IMO, means they should stick with what the students want, especially since it seems that they have been majorly improving over the past few years. Hopefully everything resolves in a positive manner. 

[Hard Core Band Fan]

4 hours ago, NEPats said:

I know this wasn't the thread for this but I'll plunk it down here anyways. Round Rock will have a different look next season. They are transitioning to a dance company. Alissa Jones will head the new dance company. She was the Dragonette director for 9 years. The new dance company will be called Dragon Fire. The current guard will still have their winterguard season. Also, the band will have new uniforms. They will look like the last but apparently the all black uniforms caused visual issues. The new one will be of the same design only white with maroon and silver.

I think more bands will be moving to this model. Color guards are a big expense and some time a huge hassle for the band directors. My daughter was in the guard and I really like her being in it, but the drama was maddening at times with the students, their parents, and even the guard staff. Most of that drama could be controlled by the head band director, but is often not a priority compared to all else they have to do. I don't welcome this change, but I can understand why it is becoming a viable option for some.

[Rubisco]

6 hours ago, NEPats said:

I know this wasn't the thread for this but I'll plunk it down here anyways. Round Rock will have a different look next season. They are transitioning to a dance company. Alissa Jones will head the new dance company. She was the Dragonette director for 9 years. The new dance company will be called Dragon Fire. The current guard will still have their winterguard season. Also, the band will have new uniforms. They will look like the last but apparently the all black uniforms caused visual issues. The new one will be of the same design only white with maroon and silver.

I'm curious what the primary motivation is for discontinuing the guard. Behind-the-scenes drama? Recruitment issues? Staff turnover? Visual judging frustrations? All of the above, perhaps? 🤔

Maybe Vandy is about to set a trend. They've won every major contest without a guard, and regularly achieve visual scores near or at the top. I'm guessing they receive fewer comments from upstairs judges about poor flag timing (for their swing flag work), and of course no comments at all about weapons. That stuff is very exposed upstairs!

I'll admit that I think there are several Texas bands whose visual scores might also benefit from doing away with their guards -- as long as dance teams are rewarded the same. Not that I would want that, and I'm not sure Round Rock falls into that category.

[NEPats]

2 hours ago, Rubisco said:

I'm curious what the primary motivation is for discontinuing the guard. Behind-the-scenes drama? Recruitment issues? Staff turnover? Visual judging frustrations? All of the above, perhaps? 🤔

Maybe Vandy is about to set a trend. They've won every major contest without a guard, and regularly achieve visual scores near or at the top. I'm guessing they receive fewer comments from upstairs judges about poor flag timing (for their swing flag work), and of course no comments at all about weapons. That stuff is very exposed upstairs!

I'll admit that I think there are several Texas bands whose visual scores might also benefit from doing away with their guards -- as long as dance teams are rewarded the same. Not that I would want that, and I'm not sure Round Rock falls into that category.

It was decided at the meeting tonight that they will keep their guard and add a dance team. The parents spoke up.

[Tubalord11]

56 minutes ago, NEPats said:

It was decided at the meeting tonight that they will keep their guard and add a dance team. The parents spoke up.

I think this was the best move.I'm very excited to see how they integrate the two together, very much looking forward to what they have in store for us next season! 

[Rubisco]

19 hours ago, NEPats said:

It was decided at the meeting tonight that they will keep their guard and add a dance team. The parents spoke up.

I'm happy for the guard kids! Otherwise they probably would have had to make an Independent guard for future seasons, or just join existing ones.

It'll be interesting to see what Rock looks like with both a guard and dance team. The Reagan method instead of the Vandy method. It's good for big impact moments.