BOA SA VS GNats -strength of competition

[TWHSParent]

I predict at least 1 Texas Band will medal in Indy - hopefully more

 

I would give that at least a 90% chance of happening right now. I think getting 2 is around 50%, and 3 is around 20% (wild guesses on my part - 3 bands would have to beat Carmel, which hasn't happened since 2015 when they were 5th).

 

Recent history suggests that CTJ and Hebron have very strong medal cases, stronger in my view than Avon (but only slightly). Vandegrift would be next in my opinion (but less strong than Avon). TWHS and Leander have been up and down the last few years, and with an "up" year will be right there and are capable of winning or medaling. Round Rock's recent years would not suggest a medal case can be made, but it is a new year, and a finals appearance is very much in play.

[CTJBandPops]

I would give that at least a 90% chance of happening right now. I think getting 2 is around 50%, and 3 is around 20% (wild guesses on my part - 3 bands would have to beat Carmel, which hasn't happened since 2015 when they were 5th).

 

Recent history suggests that CTJ and Hebron have very strong medal cases, stronger in my view than Avon (but only slightly). Vandegrift would be next in my opinion (but less strong than Avon). TWHS and Leander have been up and down the last few years, and with an "up" year will be right there and are capable of winning or medaling. Round Rock's recent years would not suggest a medal case can be made, but it is a new year, and a finals appearance is very much in play.

agreed - I think you are spot on - Carmel will be hard to unseat but I think that the #teamtexas has a chance to do it - I would love to see a Texas sweep - we can hope

[TWHSParent]

agreed - I think you are spot on - Carmel will be hard to unseat but I think that the #teamtexas has a chance to do it - I would love to see a Texas sweep - we can hope

 

I also want to point out that I'm not discounting William Mason. Based on the last 2 years, they would be behind TWHS and Leander, but they have new directors and are rebuilding to try to get back to where they were a few years ago. It will be interesting to see how they compete.

[justabandkid94]

It is absolutely asinine to imply politics/unfairness is why Carmel has won 3 eagles in a row

[Samuel Culper]

It is absolutely asinine to imply politics/unfairness is why Carmel has won 3 eagles in a row

Why?

[LeanderMomma]

It is absolutely asinine to imply politics/unfairness is why Carmel has won 3 eagles in a row

I made it clear that I thought Carmel was deserving of their accolades. I’m also entitled to my own opinion on whether or not I believe that some politics may come into play in certain BOA contests. And frankly I don’t give a rats rear end whether or not you think that’s asinine.

[BlueCircle]

I believe that Carmel did lose their legendary color guard instructor so it will be interesting to see if those effects are noticeable.

[justabandkid94]

First of all, in order to sufficiently argue that BOA adjudicators are conspiring together to perpetuate an unfair system, you would need credible evidence. Unless I missed some revelatory expose in the past few years indicating such, there is zero possibility of making a concrete stance in that department. Let's not be that silly.

 

Second, we need to analyze the definition of objective fairness in a competitive arena. Is it BOAs responsibility to construct as fair as possible of a platform to facilitate healthy competition, or is to their responsibility to read into what the "fair" result is for that contest? Obviously, it's the first option, and I know everyone on here agrees with that. If BOA was concerned with picking the fair outcome,  bands like Hebron who have seemingly dominated early rounds of contests, only to be usurped in the finals round, would have been apologized to. Ronald Reagan would have been issued an apology for whatever judging disaster happened in 2005 that put Carmel over Reagan that year. Do these apologies happen? Yeah, albeit indirectly in the form of rule changes. Just look at newer rules like the top/bottom half of prelims dictating finals performance order.  BOA is constantly evolving to create as possibly fair of an environment that facilitates healthy competition.

 

Now, as for Carmel program itself. I've seen a couple posts in the past year from our resident historians explaining Carmel's consistent, historic dominance (I believe it was in the "Best shows you've ever seen?" thread) that can be attributed to its strong marching design staff, and overall strong foundation as a music program. Just a quick look at their marching website and it boasts some big gun names: for instance, Michael Gaines, legendary DCI and WGI show designer. A lot of the genius of the Cavaliers in the early 2000s is attributed to his designs

 

Next I'll point everyone to Carmel's track record. Let's pull up our resources at Horn Rank. Championships in 2005, 2012, 2016, 2017, 2018. As I already mentioned, 2005 was their first win -- controversial at the time (and I still disagree with the outcome), but while Reagan beat Carmel in Semifinals, the two bands went head to head against each other in Prelims 1 and actually tied for first. Maybe the bands were much more comparable on paper than the ghosts of forums past like to wail about. That being said, there's a point to be made that the finals order didn't facilitate our "objectively fair BOA process," an early argument for the much-later-on rule change. Next, 2012. Besides the LD Bell 2006-esque Broken Arrow show, this was ... honestly.. a boring year at Grand Nationals. Avon and Carmel tied in Prelims 1, followed by Carmel sitting on top the subsequent two rounds. Yawn. Moving on...

 

2016 Championship. Carmel wrapped up in another "controversy" that ended up in the favor of Carmel. Avon and Carmel tie for first, in a historic BOA moment, and our lovely GE Tie Breaker comes to save the day. While I'm sure it was the memory of a lifetime for Carmel, it was heart breaking for Avon, who beat Carmel in both rounds of the Indianapolis Super Regional the week prior, and in semifinals at Grand Nats. So they should have won right? Well, maybe not. Carmel comfortably beat Avon by 0.8 in Prelims 1; Avon edges out Carmel in Semifinals by 0.6. It literally just came down to who was on the finals panel, and their ultimate judgments. 

 

I realize no one is attempting to undermine the efforts of Carmel and what they achieve here. HOWEVER, I have been around on these forums long enough to have seen time after time again Carmel getting wrapped up in some side comment about them being the "chosen" BOA band, or that they're corrupt, or whatever. When you've been around as long as Carmel has, there's going to be several instances of your program getting lucky. Aaaand it doesn't help that Carmel is a great scapegoat for bitter band fans for the "they are good because they pay the judges!" arguments, considering the socioeconomic situation of Carmel, Indiana. Not that anyone stated the latter, but I hear it at competitions frequently

 

This all just goes back to the pretentiousness of these competitions. Marching band is art, and art is subjective. But, we want a competition, so we have to find objective metrics to say whose art is better than whose, objectively, but REALLY, it's in the eyes of the panel of judges. Jokes aside, there are obviously performance-based metrics for a reason, which help alleviate the inequity that can arise purely because certain bands can afford to use the best show designers, while others can't .. But that's another conversation.

[justabandkid94]

Yes indeed, you're right, you are entitled to your own opinion! But still, it's important to practice good sportsmanship and not jump to "POLITICS!" if results pan out in a way that you do not agree with. Similarly, the point of a forum is to have open discussions that enlighten and educate -- so no need to get upset when someone challenges you on your opinion. 

[LeanderMomma]

Yes indeed, you're right, you are entitled to your own opinion! But still, it's important to practice good sportsmanship and not jump to "POLITICS!" if results pan out in a way that you do not agree with. Similarly, the point of a forum is to have open discussions that enlighten and educate -- so no need to get upset when someone challenges you on your opinion.

It wasn’t that you were challenging my opinion, friend, that got my ire. But perhaps the way in which you went about it?

[LeanderMomma]

I believe that Carmel did lose their legendary color guard instructor so it will be interesting to see if those effects are noticeable.

I’m not 100% sure losing Rosie Queen will hurt them too much. Usually an incredible program like that will attract the best of instructors. I wonder if they have hired a permanent replacement for her yet? I also can’t wait to see how Ayala does under Rosie’s influence.

[LeanderMomma]

I think I have mistakenly given the impression that I think BOA is “fixed” and the winner predetermined. I absolutely do not believe that, and I apologize if that is the impression I have left you all.

 

Also I do believe that Carmel is an incredible program and I look forward to seeing them again live this fall, especially now that I am so much more familiar with them than I was the first time I saw them in 2016. Same with Avon. I didn’t appreciate Avon’s incredible performance in 2016 enough, and I can’t wait to see them again live this fall in their hometown environment.

 

One thing I do find so very interesting is how different Carmel and Avon are from the Texas bands. Not better or worse, just different. I’m anxious to learn more about those differences and why they’re important...or if they even matter.

[TWHSParent]

I would posit that "politics" is more subtle than an indication of conspiracy. I do not in any way believe that any programs are in a conspiracy with any judges to score them higher. I do believe politics is at play, but on a subtle playground. It is more access and discussions, learning what certain judge's likes and dislikes are, and taking that information and incorporating that into your programs, to essentially play to the known or assumed biases the judging panel has. These biases can change year to year as new ideas and designs come on the scene, so being local to the "hub" of the activity can give a boost to obtaining this info. So it is really a game of information in both gathering and application thereof. Then, of course, you have to execute on the field or it is all for nothing.

 

Could be wrong, but this is how I view "politics" in BOA and competitive marching band. The other is corruption, and there can be a fine line between the two if carried too far. And I don't see any evidence of that in BOA.

 

Have I mentioned that I hate politics? But that I have started the path on learning how to use and apply this stuff to what I do to obtain bigger goals. The art of getting people to agree with you is not always a sledgehammer (but sometimes it is). This is something we are losing in public discourse - everyone now-a-days wants to swing a bigger and bigger sledgehammer. But I digress....

[justabandkid94]

Here's where I got set off

 

I’m truly skeptical of anyone other than Carmel winning GN. I have my reasons for thinking that. I hope I’m wrong.

Rather than creating some overly dramatic implication with "I have my reasons, but I'm NOT saying..." . Why not just say what you're thinking? This makes your view point sound way more heavy than it really is.

 

Nahhhh, they’re just my own thoughts about politics of BOA in general and GN specifically and all that. But don’t think for a minute that I don’t believe Carmel deserves all the hoopla that surrounds them. They’re magnificent at what they do for sure. I am just hopeful every band in finals gets a fair judgment in Indy this fall. And I can’t wait to see our Avon friends again.

 

"They're magnificent at what they do for sure. I am just hopeful every band gets a fair judgement." What I found to be problematic. Perhaps it was just an unfortunate flow of your paragraph, but those two sentences back to back made it sound like "Yeah, Carmel is good, but the judges have been unfair to everyone else in the past."Why do you worry that bands in finals wouldn't get a fair judgment in the first place? Is there a historical precedent of bands not being fairly judged? 

[justabandkid94]

I would posit that "politics" is more subtle than an indication of conspiracy. I do not in any way believe that any programs are in a conspiracy with any judges to score them higher. I do believe politics is at play, but on a subtle playground. It is more access and discussions, learning what certain judge's likes and dislikes are, and taking that information and incorporating that into your programs, to essentially play to the known or assumed biases the judging panel has. These biases can change year to year as new ideas and designs come on the scene, so being local to the "hub" of the activity can give a boost to obtaining this info. So it is really a game of information in both gathering and application thereof. Then, of course, you have to execute on the field or it is all for nothing.

 

Could be wrong, but this is how I view "politics" in BOA and competitive marching band. The other is corruption, and there can be a fine line between the two if carried too far. And I don't see any evidence of that in BOA.

 

Have I mentioned that I hate politics? But that I have started the path on learning how to use and apply this stuff to what I do to obtain bigger goals. The art of getting people to agree with you is not always a sledgehammer (but sometimes it is). This is something we are losing in public discourse - everyone now-a-days wants to swing a bigger and bigger sledgehammer. But I digress....

I agree mostly. Every band gets BOA judge feedback but not every band has Richard Hinshaw or Jon Vanderkolff or Jeff Sacktig to help them implement the suggestions properly. It comes down to the design staff/clinicians a band has access to, which is ultimately dictated by the amount of capital a band has access to. Even then, the best bands have their hit or miss years with great shows, performances and legendary staff members

[LHSbandDad]

Here's where I got set off

 

Rather than creating some overly dramatic implication with "I have my reasons, but I'm NOT saying..." . Why not just say what you're thinking? This makes your view point sound way more heavy than it really is.

 

 

"They're magnificent at what they do for sure. I am just hopeful every band gets a fair judgement." What I found to be problematic. Perhaps it was just an unfortunate flow of your paragraph, but those two sentences back to back made it sound like "Yeah, Carmel is good, but the judges have been unfair to everyone else in the past."Why do you worry that bands in finals wouldn't get a fair judgment in the first place? Is there a historical precedent of bands not being fairly judged? 

I think "Just Band Kid" needs to be careful.  It is one thing to take a run at our own "Leander Band Momma" once but when she very nicely explains herself and tries to make things right you take a second double swipe at her?  One thing I have learned about this forum is she is more than fair and balanced and the overwhelming majority of people support and respect her contributions.  Proceed with caution...

[justabandkid94]

I think "Just Band Kid" needs to be careful.  It is one thing to take a run at our own "Leander Band Momma" once but when she very nicely explains herself and tries to make things right you take a second double swipe at her?  One thing I have learned about this forum is she is more than fair and balanced and the overwhelming majority of people support and respect her contributions.  Proceed with caution...

"Leander High School Band Dad," I wasn't taking a second swipe at her. I was offering context as to how I perhaps read into her statements too much. Thanks for the advisement, though

[justabandkid94]

 

Just a note of advise for "justabandkid94", take it for what you feel it's worth:   It would have been a good idea to have let things go after Leander Band Mom's prior gracious post.   You are just coming off as trying to prove yourself correct even at the cost of one of the most loved posters and historically one of the most fare ones on this site....   I don't think it will do any damage to her but may to you and your reputation on this site.

I'm not seeking to undermine anyone's reputation. I saw a point I disagreed with and wanted an explanation, and subsequently I offered further context as to what made me pop off. 

[gregorydf01]

Did not say you were and understand you were not.  Just that sometimes things can be pushed to far and I am advising that I think you pushed this one too far and are not coming off as intended.  Might be best to let it go at this point if LBM is willing to do so.

[justabandkid94]

Did not say you were and understand you were not.  Just that sometimes things can be pushed to far and I am advising that I think you pushed this one too far and are not coming off as intended.  Might be best to let it go at this point if LBM is willing to do so.

That was in response to your now-deleted post. I'm perfectly fine letting go, but obviously will reply to make amends if people are calling me out

[josephbandfan]

I don't think justbandkid94 has done anything wrong. Maybe it could be read as a little aggressive but we're on the forums to discuss and debate. I personally interpreted LeanderMomma's text somewhat of the same way and was interested in her elaborating on what she meant.

[LeanderMomma]

Sure is nice weather we’re having out.

[LeanderMomma]

I don't think justbandkid94 has done anything wrong. Maybe it could be read as a little aggressive but we're on the forums to discuss and debate. I personally interpreted LeanderMomma's text somewhat of the same way and was interested in her elaborating on what she meant.

I’d rather not elaborate any more than I already have and just sound like some kind of gossipy old lady. It’s strictly my opinion based on my own observations. I already said all I’m going to say on the subject because like I said...it’s just an opinion. I would rather not put Carmel in the middle of a topic that actually has nothing to do with them at all. And I don’t want to be misinterpreted as bashing Carmel and I am concerned that that is exactly what is happening.

[CTJBandPops]

I’d rather not elaborate any more than I already have and just sound like some kind of gossipy old lady. It’s strictly my opinion based on my own observations. I already said all I’m going to say on the subject because like I said...it’s just an opinion. I would rather not put Carmel in the middle of a topic that actually has nothing to do with them at all. And I don’t want to be misinterpreted as bashing Carmel and I am concerned that that is exactly what is happening.

LeanderMomma - welcome to the dog house - you will find that the A/C works most days and the cocktail servers are very attentive - grab a seat at the pool.

 

nice to see a tiff that does not include me - happy hour starts in 10 minutes - Rita's are their special today - 

 

Post On!!

[TWHSParent]

Dunno why, but this popped into my head...

 

https://dilbert.com/strip/1995-02-01