Junior Varsity (JV) Bands - Yea or Nay

[principalagent]

Texas is the only state with practice limits. If I remember correctly, Avon and Carmel are in the area of 10-14 hours a week. I think one was on the high end and the other on the low. Also, they might have long practices on show days too.

 

I know Tarpon and BA both get up to 20 hours a week.

[Jeffrey L. Gorman]

Interesting how different parts of the state and even the country do things in different ways. I wonder which is better, if any.

Arcadia CA has a JV Band, the only one in CA I know of.  They have 382 members in the Band, Banners, Musicians, and Flags and not only compete in Field Marching but in Parade Marching.   In Parade Marching, the Contest Band numbers  240 members.   They have a JV Band made up of the other 140 members who also compete in Parade Marching in two different contests.  The JV Band primarily made up of 9th and 10 Grade competes against smaller schools in a different class.  They came up with this idea because in CA they have several combined Parade and Field Show Contests.  The Field Band numbers approximately 300 members which looking in numbers is 60 more folks than in the the Parade Contest Band.  By having the JV Band compete in the Parade Marching, they take the whole Band to contests and the remaining 82 folks assist in getting the field Band ready.  The JV Band has the Assistant Directors of Bands and Guard Directors working with them during these contests in which the Band is divided.  For events like the Arcadia Festival of Bands(being held this weekend) the entire Band marches as they are the host band and do not compete (Watch them on You Tube)       The entire Band marches at places like Disneyland and the Tournament of Roses Parade(They have marched  16 times in this event)  At Football games the Field Band does their show with the JV band folks joining in forming the School A and playing the Fight Song at the end of the show.  They started doing the JV Band Competing in Parade to give the younger students an opportunity to compete .  They do usually 5 Parade Contest and 3 Field Contests plus the SCSBOA Championships

[LeanderMomma]

Arcadia CA has a JV Band, the only one in CA I know of.  They have 382 members in the Band, Banners, Musicians, and Flags and not only compete in Field Marching but in Parade Marching.   In Parade Marching, the Contest Band numbers  240 members.   They have a JV Band made up of the other 140 members who also compete in Parade Marching in two different contests.  The JV Band primarily made up of 9th and 10 Grade competes against smaller schools in a different class.  They came up with this idea because in CA they have several combined Parade and Field Show Contests.  The Field Band numbers approximately 300 members which looking in numbers is 60 more folks than in the the Parade Contest Band.  By having the JV Band compete in the Parade Marching, they take the whole Band to contests and the remaining 82 folks assist in getting the field Band ready.  The JV Band has the Assistant Directors of Bands and Guard Directors working with them during these contests in which the Band is divided.  For events like the Arcadia Festival of Bands(being held this weekend) the entire Band marches as they are the host band and do not compete (Watch them on You Tube)       The entire Band marches at places like Disneyland and the Tournament of Roses Parade(They have marched  16 times in this event)  At Football games the Field Band does their show with the JV band folks joining in forming the School A and playing the Fight Song at the end of the show.  They started doing the JV Band Competing in Parade to give the younger students an opportunity to compete .  They do usually 5 Parade Contest and 3 Field Contests plus the SCSBOA Championships

 

wow, that's a lot!  

 

I remember marching in a lot of parades when I was in band in Memphis.  I remember we did a lot of practice marching for the parades as well.  I enjoyed it for the most part except for the Christmas parade.  I was in the colorguard and we wore thin silky tops, long skirts, panty hose and boots.  By the end of the 5 mile parade route, our feet were bloody and we were FROZEN!!

[A Testing Trumpet]

Thanks for all the sharing of different programs' approaches.   There are always trade-offs and pros/cons to each method, and 1 size may not fit all.

 

 

Thank you.   I think you are quite insightful and mature to make such a crisp and powerful comment.   

 

 

When considering any change, one has to ask why?  What's wrong?  What's the root cause of that "wrong"?   Then, ask will this change address the true root cause?   Will it create a new problem?   If so, which problem is worse - the original one or the new one?

 

IMHO - 

PROS of JV:

1) opportunity to perform music that could have popular appeal

2) opportunity to perform shows that are challenging but within reach for new/struggling marchers

3) opportunity to focus on fundamental skills so as to accelerate improvement

 

CONS:  

1) Treated like left overs, with assistant director support, no techs, etc. etc.

2) Delays fundamental skill growth

3) results in upper class students with fewer years of competitive environment exposure

 

You'll notice that my "pros" are all listed as "opportunities".   That's because I am not convinced that RR's JV program has developed sufficiently to achieve those opportunities.   It could have been all of that, but I fear it has resulted in causing the risked noted as "cons".

 

I think it is a very interesting distinction that you mention the benefits as mere opportunities. I would expand this further to say that JV bands do not necessarily have to have these cons; much as how you highlight how it doesn't necessarily have those benefits. A JV band in it of itself isn't a good or band thing, but will become one depending on how it is executed. As a former member of the RR band, I don't want to talk much about my experience in that band specifically in this public forum in the interest of confidentiality; but I would be happy to talk to you over a PM if you wish to discuss that more precisely. For general terms, what I said before is largely what I wanted to say on the subject: It can be a good thing if done with as much care and investment as your Varsity group; if you don't, it simply will be a secondary group that falls to the wayside of your older group. 

[AvonDad]

Separate subject but I'm curious.  In Texas, we have the UIL weekly practice limits....do they have anything like that in Indiana?  How much does Avon's band practice each week?

I would say the average week is between 9-11 hrs after school during the week, plus class time during the day and who knows on Saturday. They usually start around 9am on competition days with lunch breaks, before getting ready to load the bus and compete, and get back home around 11pm.  During the 2 week fall break they got Sun-Wed off with 9-9 practice on Thur and most of the day on Fri and all day on Sat with competition that evening.  So..nope, no 8 hour rule limit in Indiana.

[LeanderMomma]

I would say the average week is between 9-11 hrs after school during the week, plus class time during the day and who knows on Saturday. They usually start around 9am on competition days with lunch breaks, before getting ready to load the bus and compete, and get back home around 11pm. During the 2 week fall break they got Sun-Wed off with 9-9 practice on Thur and most of the day on Fri and all day on Sat with competition that evening. So..nope, no 8 hour rule limit in Indiana.

Do you think it gives Indiana bands a distinct edge over Texas bands, or do you think we manage pretty well within our 8 hour requirement to stay as competitive as we should be? Just curious what a non Texas parent of an extraordinary band thinks. I know what Texans think.

[AvonDad]

Do you think it gives Indiana bands a distinct edge over Texas bands, or do you think we manage pretty well within our 8 hour requirement to stay as competitive as we should be? Just curious what a non Texas parent of an extraordinary band thinks. I know what Texans think.

It makes a good question and food for thought.  I saw Texas bands uploading videos of their openers while we were still running rudiments and only hearing rumours about our show.  I believe the bands down south begin working on their shows a lot earlier in the season due to your 8 hrs and Aug 1 rules.  This year was unusual as we had almost 6 mins on the field for our first competition compared to only 4 at the same time last year.  It comes down to managing quantity vs quality IMHO. 

 

With 100 freshmen this year, they had a huge learning curve with expectations about what they should be doing, plus how this whole marching band thing really works behind the scenes.  I don't think we have full band at anytime during the school day, just sectional classes, so the after school time is when it comes together.  Even then its basically Tues and Thurs with the full ensemble and that may be 5-6 hrs during the week, not counting Sat. Ok, sectionals happen the rest of the time, so the hours are up there. 

 

I've seen discussions on here about bands considering skipping UIL for a season and going all out, maybe it was CTJ as a rumour?  That's kind of what Avon and Carmel did for 2017 when they both skipped ISSMA.   I would love to see someone give it a try down there and just see if it really makes that much of a difference.  I think Texas does extremely well with their restrictions and probably have a lot better rehearsal times and more getting accomplished because there isn't any alternative for them.  They play the cards dealt to them in the best way they know how..... and it shows.

[CTJBandPops]

It makes a good question and food for thought.  I saw Texas bands uploading videos of their openers while we were still running rudiments and only hearing rumours about our show.  I believe the bands down south begin working on their shows a lot earlier in the season due to your 8 hrs and Aug 1 rules.  This year was unusual as we had almost 6 mins on the field for our first competition compared to only 4 at the same time last year.  It comes down to managing quantity vs quality IMHO. 

 

With 100 freshmen this year, they had a huge learning curve with expectations about what they should be doing, plus how this whole marching band thing really works behind the scenes.  I don't think we have full band at anytime during the school day, just sectional classes, so the after school time is when it comes together.  Even then its basically Tues and Thurs with the full ensemble and that may be 5-6 hrs during the week, not counting Sat. Ok, sectionals happen the rest of the time, so the hours are up there. 

 

I've seen discussions on here about bands considering skipping UIL for a season and going all out, maybe it was CTJ as a rumour?  That's kind of what Avon and Carmel did for 2017 when they both skipped ISSMA.   I would love to see someone give it a try down there and just see if it really makes that much of a difference.  I think Texas does extremely well with their restrictions and probably have a lot better rehearsal times and more getting accomplished because there isn't any alternative for them.  They play the cards dealt to them in the best way they know how..... and it shows.

as for the CTJ skipping UIL - the rumor was just that - they did not skip UIL but rather withdrew themselves from the Area competition in 2016 due to the changes at the UIL state level that extended the days of state while they were already scheduled to go to Indy for G Nats. I am far from an expert, but it is my understanding that there are more considerations than just the band withdrawing from UIL. in Texas, UIL governs all competitive events - all sports, fine arts including art etc.  

just as there are 8 hour rules that challenge Texas, I know in CA, any use a year round school model that also impacts their ability to compete and many, many years ago when I was in high school, they also had 2 marching seasons with a fall and a spring season. - as also noted in this post, the CA school and their band reviews generally have a parade competition in the morning, a jazz or ensemble competition at mid day and the field show competition at night -rather than BOA prelims and finals on the field.

 

It is my understanding that Texas is the only state with the 8 hour rule though many states have their own versions of UIL as a governing body

[LeanderMomma]

It makes a good question and food for thought. I saw Texas bands uploading videos of their openers while we were still running rudiments and only hearing rumours about our show. I believe the bands down south begin working on their shows a lot earlier in the season due to your 8 hrs and Aug 1 rules. This year was unusual as we had almost 6 mins on the field for our first competition compared to only 4 at the same time last year. It comes down to managing quantity vs quality IMHO.

 

With 100 freshmen this year, they had a huge learning curve with expectations about what they should be doing, plus how this whole marching band thing really works behind the scenes. I don't think we have full band at anytime during the school day, just sectional classes, so the after school time is when it comes together. Even then its basically Tues and Thurs with the full ensemble and that may be 5-6 hrs during the week, not counting Sat. Ok, sectionals happen the rest of the time, so the hours are up there.

 

I've seen discussions on here about bands considering skipping UIL for a season and going all out, maybe it was CTJ as a rumour? That's kind of what Avon and Carmel did for 2017 when they both skipped ISSMA. I would love to see someone give it a try down there and just see if it really makes that much of a difference. I think Texas does extremely well with their restrictions and probably have a lot better rehearsal times and more getting accomplished because there isn't any alternative for them. They play the cards dealt to them in the best way they know how..... and it shows.

Wow, 100 Freshmen would have been quite the undertaking! I bet they were extremely overwhelmed at first. It’s impressive how far they came in a short time.

 

I was thinking I read on here that in Texas a band can’t decide to not follow the 8 hour rule and just skip UIL. I don’t think you can ever violate that rule here, even if you plan to skip out on the state competition. UIL is the law of the land in Texas.

 

You are right about the quality vs. quantity of time spent in practice. I think the best band directors are the ones who have figured out the best way to manage the time they have.

[CTJBandPops]

Wow, 100 Freshmen would have been quite the undertaking! I bet they were extremely overwhelmed at first. It’s impressive how far they came in a short time.

 

I was thinking I read on here that in Texas a band can’t decide to not follow the 8 hour rule and just skip UIL. I don’t think you can ever violate that rule here, even if you plan to skip out on the state competition. UIL is the law of the land in Texas.

 

You are right about the quality vs. quantity of time spent in practice. I think the best band directors are the ones who have figured out the best way to manage the time they have.

you are correct - UIL has certain rules (as I understand it) that must be upheld for all schools  - example - while UIL does not recognize winter guard (TCGC or WGI) as a sport the UIL rule of traveling/competing in a school event requires students to maintain all UIL rules - grades, practice hours, etc... UIL is the law of the land in Texas

[principalagent]

So if a band skips UIL, they’re still governed by TEA. So they still only have eight hours during the school week, but it’s a free for all during class time and on the weekends—UIL guides the weekend time, specifically. Westfield and Spring were the last two bands to completely eschew UIL and had regular weekend practices. Further, TEA drives the grade standards too, which is reincorporated in UIL and carries over to BOA.

[Jeffrey L. Gorman]

you are correct - UIL has certain rules (as I understand it) that must be upheld for all schools  - example - while UIL does not recognize winter guard (TCGC or WGI) as a sport the UIL rule of traveling/competing in a school event requires students to maintain all UIL rules - grades, practice hours, etc... UIL is the law of the land in Texas

That is right. The 8 hour rule is a TEA Regulation applying to ALL activities not just Band.Back in the late 1990's Spring Westfield decided to test the 8 Hour Rule by not doing Region Marching Contest, but going to BOA instead.  In the Spring after getting 1st Divisions in Concert and Sight Reading the school expected to recieive a Sweepstakes Award from UIL. Advised that since the Band did not compete in the UIL Region Marching Contest, they were not eligible for Sweepstakes Band Status. They were also penalized for abusing the 8 hour rule by practicing for BOA over the alloted amount of time allowed. This is a NO BRAINER. Also look at it this way, when LD Bell won BOA, the win while conforming to the 8 Hour Rule was national news in the School Music world. I had just moved to TX when the State Legislature passed the No Pass No Play law (which inlcludes this provision).  The coaches moaned and then some Band Directors moaned, however within 5 years there was a very noticeable improvement in the schools academically.  I do not agree with everything UIL does, however after comparing them to the rest of the nation's High School Activities programs we are very fortunate.

[LeanderMomma]

Thank you, gentlemen.  I was curious how that all worked.  And there's a part of me that thinks it's pretty darn cool that Texas can accomplish so much greatness within some pretty strict rehearsal time guidelines!  

[takigan]

Separate subject but I'm curious.  In Texas, we have the UIL weekly practice limits....do they have anything like that in Indiana?  How much does Avon's band practice each week?

 

 

I talked about this in another thread, but Avon's interesting in the fact that their September and October weekly schedules aren't as rigorous as other bands in the GN winner's circle (they're not rehearsing much more than we do), but they keep a moderately demanding rehearsal schedule throughout both the spring and summer, moreso than the other groups.  This is in contrast to the majority of bands who max out their hours during the competitive season and then "pack it up" after the last contest, and only do weekly sectionals during the spring (and taking the summer off in the case of Texas).

 

That's how it was when I went to Georgetown...just on a smaller scale.  We only rehearsed 5-7 hours outside of school during the week, but we still did 4-5 hours per week in the Spring for wind ensemble groups.

 

I personally call it the "slow cooker" approach. Yeah, bad name, I know .

[FloMoParent]

I can only speak from my experience as a FMHS Parent, I do not know how it is at other schools.

The Flower Mound Jaguar Band is all the kids in band (colorguard, winds, percussion, props, techs).  They all perform at football games, pep rallies, and other band activities.
The Flower Mound Competition band is the sub-set of the Jaguar Band who are performing the competition show.  The students who are not in the competition band are there by tryout, by grades, or by choice (there have been several All-State musicians who did not want to participate in the competition show and were happy to be a member of the Jag band).  The Jag band does have marching practice, they have a full drumline and their own techs and drum major.  Many times a student will "move up" from the Jag Band to the competition band during the year (added as an additional prop or player) due to grades, injuries, or whatever.  I know this is the case as during my son's freshman year he started out as a member of the Jag band, moved up to the Competition band to help with props, then due to an injury was actually playing during Area, BOA San Antonio, State, and Nats.  I have seen having the Jag Band as a benefit because it gives options and it provides new members a way to learn that isn't as demanding and stressful as the competition band.

As for musically, Concert season is almost as competitive as marching season.  Students want to be in the Wind Symphony (top concert band), they want to make Area and State.  I believe that desire to be a strong musician playing challenging music during concert season gets them ready to learn and play challenging music during marching season.   When you look at the number of students in the All State bands who come from Hebron, Marcus, and Flower Mound it shows in the quality of music over all from our district.

[TxDragonDad]

This has been an interesting discussion topic.   My $0.02 from reviewing the comments is this.   Having two bands requires two band programs.   That means two band support structures in place.   If the support infrastructure is insufficient to maintain two separate bands, then one or both bands could suffer due to the split.     The missions of each marching ensemble may be different (competitive vs entertainment/development); however, the pursuit of excellence should be no less for one ensemble than the other.   If the competitive ensemble draws resources away from entertainment/development ensemble then it will suffer and not achieve its vision fully.   At worst case, it could be minimally sustained and fail to grow and develop the participants.   

 

To put it bluntly - if the split is solely to allow for more focus on the competitive team, then by definition the result is less focus on the rest of the individuals.   Ultimately, those individuals' development is delayed and the whole program may suffer in the long term.   Rather, if the split is to place equal focus on two different purposes and has sufficient resources allocated to each, then both can thrive.   

[takigan]

If you build your program heavily around fundamentals, then the bands can be combined for these fundamental sessions, especially during August preseason and the instructional resources (techs) can be utilized for both groups at the same time.  If you invest a lot in student leadership, you can also minimize the number of techs you need for the competitive group where most of your student leaders abide, and can focus your instructional resources more on improving the second group, while having a competitive group that's mostly self-taught with director oversight. 

By having the marching bands meet during 2 different periods during the Fall you'll be able to use all of your director staff on both groups, then use the opening part of your before/after school rehearsal as a full combined fundamentals block and then split.  You'll obviously need a staff split for the rest of rehearsal if your bands are meeting at the same time.  Though if you have one band meeting before school and one after, that can help too (but can be stressful to the staff).  You'll want your JV group show to be easy to teach, maybe even more like a college show or military show that uses less sets/direction changes, and of course you won't need to invest any of your prop/design budget into it aside from drill.  But you know....if you have the right kind of kids, you might even be able to get the kids to write the drill for the JV group.

lol, I don't know why I spend so much time thinking about stuff like this when I'm not even a band director

[TxDragonDad]

Just imagine how difficult all this gets when the "band" doesn't even have the same class together in the fall.   They are all spread out.   Not even the competitive group has the same "band" class period.   

[CTJBandPops]

Just imagine how difficult all this gets when the "band" doesn't even have the same class together in the fall.   They are all spread out.   Not even the competitive group has the same "band" class period.   

Welcome to Texas - all programs (to my knowledge) are in this format - and that is mostly because you cannot put 300 kids in the same 5o minute block and expect results

[AllenBandDad]

Well because of Plano's structure of their schools, they definitely have JV bands, but it's because all of their high schools 

are grades 9/10  only so they just play for the JV games.   But they all have their own shows and compete at UIL with them.  The Senior High Schools only have 11th/12th (for the most part, there is a small exception at Plano East due to the IB academy in the school which allows the kids in that academy to be part of band in 9/10th grades). 

 

I think for the High Schools who perform their own shows, this is a great lead into the Senior Highs and marching, and it can build confidence.  However,  I do think it affects the Senior Highs ability to compete with some of the other 6A's schools that are not limited to just 11/12th grade.  

 

I always wondered why Allen doesn't have a JV band.  I know a large band is impressive, but it can hurt them too in the competitions.  

 

While Allen doesn't have a JV band (for many reason, most of them expressed in other posts in this thread), they do have a large number of alternates/shadows for the competition show.  Probably just under 100, though I don't have the exact number.  As far as the large numbers hurting in competition, I disagree.  It's all about fundamentals and show design.  Over the past couple of years, the competition show design has been done in a way to take advantage of the size of the band, instead of trying to do what other bands do, but just bigger.

 

For concert season, the band is divided up into 10 "normal" sized concert bands.

[LeanderMomma]

While Allen doesn't have a JV band (for many reason, most of them expressed in other posts in this thread), they do have a large number of alternates/shadows for the competition show.  Probably just under 100, though I don't have the exact number.  As far as the large numbers hurting in competition, I disagree.  It's all about fundamentals and show design.  Over the past couple of years, the competition show design has been done in a way to take advantage of the size of the band, instead of trying to do what other bands do, but just bigger.

 

For concert season, the band is divided up into 10 "normal" sized concert bands.

 

Ten concert bands.  Wow.  I bet the concerts go for over 4 hours!    

[AllenBandDad]

Ten concert bands.  Wow.  I bet the concerts go for over 4 hours!    

 

Two nights, about 4 hours each night, especially when jazz bands also perform.

[Danpod]

We had kind of a hybrid shadow/JV band method when I was marching.

The first two football games, we would perform a "football" show.  Simple drill and music that everyone had a spot it.  The show would last about four to five minutes.  At the same time, we were learning our competition show.  There were certain members that had shadows behind them for various reasons. Much like football practice, there would be times when the shadow would get some reps in by themselves for the competition show.     

[LeanderMomma]

Two nights, about 4 hours each night, especially when jazz bands also perform.

That’s impressive.

[LeanderMomma]

We had kind of a hybrid shadow/JV band method when I was marching.

 

The first two football games, we would perform a "football" show. Simple drill and music that everyone had a spot it. The show would last about four to five minutes. At the same time, we were learning our competition show. There were certain members that had shadows behind them for various reasons. Much like football practice, there would be times when the shadow would get some reps in by themselves for the competition show.

I can’t imagine taking the time to learn two shows!