Nationally Ranked Bands

[2ndgenbandmom75]

Is HornRank considered to be THE place for the Nationally Ranked Marching Bands?  I've been following them for a few years now and sometimes their ranking doesn't make sense.  Of course there's bias, but this week really has me scratching my head after coming back from UIL & BOASA and seeing the scores vs other Top 5 bands.  One of the schools in my district, Marcus, got 2nd in UIL & 3rd in BOASA, with scores higher than Avon, Carmel & Hebron, yet they stayed in the same spot they've been for a few weeks now.  (In BOASA, they were a mere 1.5~ points behind first place, Vandy, yet they stay in 7th?)  
I've talked to several families in our band/ social circle, and they're as shocked as I am about this... 

[Clark_DM_2009]

HornRank's rankings haven't been updated to reflect the changes of the contests that took place this past week. The Top 32 list out right now is from October 31st, I'm sure they'll update them and put Marcus where they deserve to be accordingly.

[2ndgenbandmom75]

59 minutes ago, Clark_DM_2009 said:

HornRank's rankings haven't been updated to reflect the changes of the contests that took place this past week. The Top 32 list out right now is from October 31st, I'm sure they'll update them and put Marcus where they deserve to be accordingly.

They are updated- as of Nov. 7th.  (you have to go look at the Forums, they don't update the Top 32 page expeditiously)  That's what's so shocking.  Even if you discount UIL, I'd think they would've been moved up to 3, 4 or 5th... 

[packwick]

ehhhh the rankings are good for marketing, but the only reason to visit hornrank is for the BOA recaps w/ ordinals LOL.

you should care more about actual accomplishments, not a forum fan ranking.

also BOA = national so it's logical to focus on that and not UIL which uses a system unique to Texas. can't directly compare scores across contests either. only direct comparison b/w Hebron and Marcus using the national system happened back in early Oct w/ Hebron sweeping the captions and winning by over a point.

[takigan]

I'm not a Hornranker, but I know a lot of the guys who are.  I won't speak on behalf of their methods, but I will say a single breakout year doesn't get you instant clout. A good year will move you up the rankings, but you're going to hit a wall when comparing that breakout season against some of the really established bands at the top.  Being consistently good contest after contest, year after year is what gets you that high ranking  

Marcus beat TWHS at State, but they lost to TWHS at BOA SA which does carry more weight because it's a national event.  So putting Marcus past TWHS probably isn't going to happen, especially when taking into account the huge gap between them at SA last year (which does factor in to the ranking).

Tarpon is an anomaly due to how disconnected they are from the rank and file, which makes them harder to peg.  In my opinion that lack of competing against good bands should count more against you than it currently does.  I think some of the rankers are using Tarpon's 2018 ranking to determine their position more than they really should be only due to the fact that it's all we have to go on when stacking them up against the rest (aside from 2022). one could make a solid case for Tarpon being beneath both TWHS and Marcus (and even Mason, who they lost to at Nats last year), and I think it could very well end up that way if TWHS (and other TX groups) upends some of the more established Midwestern bands (who've also beaten Tarpon) this weekend.

Scores have way too much relativity within their own contests to be a solid measuring stick across contests.  It's a tall order to say Marcus is better than the reigning caption-sweeping GN champion Carmel because of a cross-contest score technicality.

And to say Marcus is better than Hebron due to beating them at one non-BOA contest is just asking for trouble...but I don't think I need to tell you that considering the 2 schools in contention 😉.  Not saying that's what you're saying....just going down the list of bands in question.

 

[natertater21000]

@2ndgenbandmom75 The horn rank rankings don’t even acknowledge head to head scores at BOA contests at this point, I wouldn’t worry about them. 

[crunchycookie3]

2 minutes ago, natertater21000 said:

@2ndgenbandmom75 The horn rank rankings don’t even acknowledge head to head scores at BOA contests at this point, I wouldn’t worry about them. 

Agreed- groups that ranked above certain others in both prelims and finals at BOASA still ended up ranked below them. Hornrank I think started with the hope of ranking schools based on BOA performance and achievement, but it is evident that the rankings are established not on performance, but rather prestige. In addition, while admirable to try and rank all the schools, the competition is SOOOOOO tight that an unranked school could easily hang with the likes of someone ranked mid-teens. Anyway, I’m unsure if there’s a solution that could even be implemented (if the Hornrank folks even had interest in mending their system.) At the end of the day, these are all child performers pouring their hearts into making something on the field. As long as they inspire just one person, that’s a total win.

[natertater21000]

8 minutes ago, crunchycookie3 said:

At the end of the day, these are all child performers pouring their hearts into making something on the field. As long as they inspire just one person, that’s a total win.

100%

[LeanderMomma]

On 11/7/2023 at 11:42 PM, packwick said:

the only reason to visit hornrank is for the BOA recaps w/ ordinals LOL.

Actually that’s not the only reason to visit HornRank. There is a lot of great conversation in the forums there about bands both inside and outside of Texas. I learned far more in HornRank about the intricacies of Indiana marching band (and their greatness), and how overall judging works. I’ve also met some really great human beings there who I now call lifelong friends. I’m definitely not saying HornRank is better, just that there is absolutely a place (and a need) for both that forum and this one. And there’s also the fact that Jeremiah puts a heck of a lot of effort into making the website as informative and “neutral” as possible. He hosts the entire thing himself and was just a marching band kid himself when he started it. 
 

Sorry to inject the HornRank plug here but it torqued me a little reading this entire thread. HornRank is just another great place to discuss all things band, just like TXBands is. And yeah, we also happen to rank bands during marching season which is a rather thankless task, but one we do take seriously and enjoy immensely!

[J-Mike16]

I also love the community over at Hornrank. They are awesome! Though I am still a bit partial to TXBands, as I know more about our Powerhouse State than the rest of the country. However, both sites are top tier! ❤️

[packwick]

7 hours ago, LeanderMomma said:

And yeah, we also happen to rank bands during marching season which is a rather thankless task

yeah, gosh i wonder why that is... lmao.

[Rubisco]

HornRank is something else, that's for sure!

I don't have an account over there, and I can't recall the last time I visited the forums part of the site. Just like TXBands, it's a bit of an echo chamber! Honestly, these days, I don't spend as much time talking about band with forums people, but with people I know from back when I was teaching. The fan perspective is of course always at least a little interesting. 😉

The rankings are what they are. I agree that they're primarily good for generating interest in HornRank. I don't take them seriously -- in fact, I don't even know what they are! If you're upset about them, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be more than happy to explain the process. Actually HornRank is probably the place to get your answer!

[Rubisco]

58 minutes ago, packwick said:

yeah, gosh i wonder why that is... lmao.

I can only imagine how rancorous some of the private messages must be! Rivaled only by the messages the Chief Judges at BOA are probably receiving right now! 😂

[natertater21000]

5 hours ago, Rubisco said:

The rankings are what they are. I agree that they're primarily good for generating interest in HornRank. I don't take them seriously -- in fact, I don't even know what they are! If you're upset about them, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be more than happy to explain the process. Actually HornRank is probably the place to get your answer!

The primary issue is the rankings routinely go against what the HornRank website says their process is. BOA is weighted higher (except when it's not) Finals results outweigh Pre lims (except when they don't) Head to head scores are valued over speculation (at least until the last 2 seasons)

Do they matter? no. Do they effect/influence anything? no. But (and this is just my opinion) when you head the most viewed and popular ranking system for marching bands across the country, there is a certain level of responsibility to be as meticulous and "accurate" as possible that comes with it.  It's also crazy to me how most of the people on Horn Rank can't seem to stand ANY criticism of the rankings. The moment any legitimate concern is brought up it's "UGH guys they're just for fun" or the comments are simply turned off lol.

[LeanderMomma]

1 hour ago, natertater21000 said:

The moment any legitimate concern is brought up it's "UGH guys they're just for fun" or the comments are simply turned off lol.

I don’t turn the comments off for criticizing the rankings. I turn them off when people get nasty towards other programs. It’s fine to disagree with the rankings. It’s absolutely NOT fine to tear down the kids in the programs who ranked higher than someone thought they should. 

[natertater21000]

1 hour ago, LeanderMomma said:

I don’t turn the comments off for criticizing the rankings. I turn them off when people get nasty towards other programs. It’s fine to disagree with the rankings. It’s absolutely NOT fine to tear down the kids in the programs who ranked higher than someone thought they should. 

Of course, I would imagine the nastier comments on Instagram come from disgruntled students (or I would certainly hope that's the case) I don't ever look at the Instagram posts of the rankings. 

[LeanderMomma]

Also, we welcome more rankers on HornRank. If you are a mature individual with marching band experience and a passion for the marching arts in general, and you consider yourself an unbiased fan of bands from all around the country, then please consider joining us! You would be vetted of course, but if a current ranker can vouch for you, that’s a great place to start!

I would also genuinely love to see a GuardRank website started but I can’t seem to talk Jeremiah into it and I’m not sure how to do it on my own. 😅

[Gotterdammerung]

First - these are high school students and I personally don't like to see adults dissect their amazing works so much past that they are all absolutely amazing.

Second - travel is expensive and not all programs are able to travel to Grand Nationals each year yet alone a single time. So that expectation is unreasonable and I do not support penalizing any program for not making the Grand Nationals trip.

Third - programs like Avon and Carmel are blessed to be so close to Grand Nationals and in turn we are all blessed to enjoy with talent every year. But it is not reasonable to assign them advantage in ranking analysis due to their geographical proximity to Lucas Oil and Grand Nationals

Fourth - While BOA Regional scores are a good early indicator of the goodness to come...I do not support using any early Regional scores in the final rankings. Example is Rouse was pretty much show complete by Austin Regional in September with Vandegrift still working on the later "pages" of a very complex show musically and visually.  By Super Regionals and late October Regionals my expectation is all programs are complete, polished and ready to compare via BOA scores.

Fifth - we will NEVER have a purely objective way to compare programs that do not compete with each other other that one common data point.  That is BOA LATE Oct/Early Nov Regional, Super Regional and Grand National Final Scores.  BOA is expanding Super Regionals (Great job BOA!) so that all bands have access to at least one of those.  Grand Nationals is just a Mega Super Super Regional for those that can make the trip.

Final Analysis - High BOA Scores from all BOA Supers and Grand Nationals = final national rankings.   It is the most objective!  I did accept Regional scores where there were no Super Regional AND the Regional was held end Oct/beginning Nov where those are show complete vs early October and September Regionals as mentioned above.

So based on all that my final rankings for 2023:

Program & 2023 High BOA Score

1. Vandegrift, TX 97.60

2. Avon, IN 97.475

3. Carmel, IN 97.275

4. The Woodlands, TX 96.70

5. Marcus, TX 96.275

6. Hebron, TX 95.700

7. Vista Ridge, TX 95.400

8. Blue Springs H.S., MO 95.075

9. Ronald Reagan H.S., TX 94.450

10. William Mason, OH 94.350

11. Rouse H.S., TX 93.975

12. American Fork H.S., UT 92.100

13. Pearland H.S., TX 91.800

14. Tarpon Springs H.S., FL 91.750

15. L.D. Bell H.S., TX 91.175

16. Broken Arrow H.S., OK 90.775

17. Bridgeland H.S., TX 90.700

18. Cedar Park, TX  90.65

19. Round Rock H.S., TX 90.625

20. Bentonville, AR 90.450

21. Leander H.S., TX 90.300

22. Keller H.S., TX 90.200

23. O’Fallon Township, IL 90.075

* Impressive work by all bands and all students involved get mega kudos!!!!!
** Will give my 2023 Uber Fan Favorite to Bentonville, AR.  Fantastic program and earned them first appearance in Grand Nationals Finals AND 9th overall. 
*** Best Visual for me at Grand Nationals was Pearland, TX as Lucas Oil is fantastic lighting and their visuals popped and were off the charts on display there.  Also a first time finalist which is awesome! 

[natertater21000]

1 hour ago, Gotterdammerung said:

First - these are high school students and I personally don't like to see adults dissect their amazing works so much past that they are all absolutely amazing.

Second - travel is expensive and not all programs are able to travel to Grand Nationals each year yet alone a single time. So that expectation is unreasonable and I do not support penalizing any program for not making the Grand Nationals trip.

Third - programs like Avon and Carmel are blessed to be so close to Grand Nationals and in turn we are all blessed to enjoy with talent every year. But it is not reasonable to assign them advantage in ranking analysis due to their geographical proximity to Lucas Oil and Grand Nationals

Fourth - While BOA Regional scores are a good early indicator of the goodness to come...I do not support using any early Regional scores in the final rankings. Example is Rouse was pretty much show complete by Austin Regional in September with Vandegrift still working on the later "pages" of a very complex show musically and visually.  By Super Regionals and late October Regionals my expectation is all programs are complete, polished and ready to compare via BOA scores.

Fifth - we will NEVER have a purely objective way to compare programs that do not compete with each other other that one common data point.  That is BOA LATE Oct/Early Nov Regional, Super Regional and Grand National Final Scores.  BOA is expanding Super Regionals (Great job BOA!) so that all bands have access to at least one of those.  Grand Nationals is just a Mega Super Super Regional for those that can make the trip.

Final Analysis - High BOA Scores from all BOA Supers and Grand Nationals = final national rankings.   It is the most objective!  I did accept Regional scores where there were no Super Regional AND the Regional was held end Oct/beginning Nov where those are show complete vs early October and September Regionals as mentioned above.

So based on all that my final rankings for 2023:

Program & 2023 High BOA Score

1. Vandegrift, TX 97.60

2. Avon, IN 97.475

3. Carmel, IN 97.275

4. The Woodlands, TX 96.70

5. Marcus, TX 96.275

6. Hebron, TX 95.700

7. Vista Ridge, TX 95.400

8. Blue Springs H.S., MO 95.075

9. Ronald Reagan H.S., TX 94.450

10. William Mason, OH 94.350

11. Rouse H.S., TX 93.975

12. American Fork H.S., UT 92.100

13. Pearland H.S., TX 91.800

14. Tarpon Springs H.S., FL 91.750

15. L.D. Bell H.S., TX 91.175

16. Broken Arrow H.S., OK 90.775

17. Bridgeland H.S., TX 90.700

18. Round Rock H.S., TX 90.625

19. Bentonville, AR 90.450

20. Leander H.S., TX 90.300

21. Keller H.S., TX 90.200

22. O’Fallon Township, IL 90.075


* Impressive work by all bands and all students involved get mega kudos!!!!!
** Will give my 2023 Uber Fan Favorite to Bentonville, AK.  Fantastic program and earned them first appearance in Grand Nationals Finals AND 9th overall. 
*** Best Visual for me at Grand Nationals was Pearland, TX as Lucas Oil is fantastic lighting and their visuals popped and were off the charts on display there.  Also a first time finalist which is awesome! 

This is missing Cedar Park with a 90.65 at BOA SA.

[Gotterdammerung]

50 minutes ago, natertater21000 said:

This is missing Cedar Park with a 90.65 at BOA SA.

<MORE COFFEE>  Thank you.  We can all agree been a LONG Bandtober and Grand Nats week.  Updated the list above!!! 🙂 CP had a nice win at State in 5A as well!
</MORE COFFEE> 

[LeanderMomma]

6 hours ago, Gotterdammerung said:

First - these are high school students and I personally don't like to see adults dissect their amazing works so much past that they are all absolutely amazing.

Second - travel is expensive and not all programs are able to travel to Grand Nationals each year yet alone a single time. So that expectation is unreasonable and I do not support penalizing any program for not making the Grand Nationals trip.

Third - programs like Avon and Carmel are blessed to be so close to Grand Nationals and in turn we are all blessed to enjoy with talent every year. But it is not reasonable to assign them advantage in ranking analysis due to their geographical proximity to Lucas Oil and Grand Nationals

Fourth - While BOA Regional scores are a good early indicator of the goodness to come...I do not support using any early Regional scores in the final rankings. Example is Rouse was pretty much show complete by Austin Regional in September with Vandegrift still working on the later "pages" of a very complex show musically and visually.  By Super Regionals and late October Regionals my expectation is all programs are complete, polished and ready to compare via BOA scores.

Fifth - we will NEVER have a purely objective way to compare programs that do not compete with each other other that one common data point.  That is BOA LATE Oct/Early Nov Regional, Super Regional and Grand National Final Scores.  BOA is expanding Super Regionals (Great job BOA!) so that all bands have access to at least one of those.  Grand Nationals is just a Mega Super Super Regional for those that can make the trip.

Final Analysis - High BOA Scores from all BOA Supers and Grand Nationals = final national rankings.   It is the most objective!  I did accept Regional scores where there were no Super Regional AND the Regional was held end Oct/beginning Nov where those are show complete vs early October and September Regionals as mentioned above.

So based on all that my final rankings for 2023:

Program & 2023 High BOA Score

1. Vandegrift, TX 97.60

2. Avon, IN 97.475

3. Carmel, IN 97.275

4. The Woodlands, TX 96.70

5. Marcus, TX 96.275

6. Hebron, TX 95.700

7. Vista Ridge, TX 95.400

8. Blue Springs H.S., MO 95.075

9. Ronald Reagan H.S., TX 94.450

10. William Mason, OH 94.350

11. Rouse H.S., TX 93.975

12. American Fork H.S., UT 92.100

13. Pearland H.S., TX 91.800

14. Tarpon Springs H.S., FL 91.750

15. L.D. Bell H.S., TX 91.175

16. Broken Arrow H.S., OK 90.775

17. Bridgeland H.S., TX 90.700

18. Cedar Park, TX  90.65

19. Round Rock H.S., TX 90.625

20. Bentonville, AR 90.450

21. Leander H.S., TX 90.300

22. Keller H.S., TX 90.200

23. O’Fallon Township, IL 90.075

* Impressive work by all bands and all students involved get mega kudos!!!!!
** Will give my 2023 Uber Fan Favorite to Bentonville, AK.  Fantastic program and earned them first appearance in Grand Nationals Finals AND 9th overall. 
*** Best Visual for me at Grand Nationals was Pearland, TX as Lucas Oil is fantastic lighting and their visuals popped and were off the charts on display there.  Also a first time finalist which is awesome! 

This looks verrry familiar. And you still have Arkansas abbreviated wrong. 🤪

[Gotterdammerung]

Still Shaking off the Grand Nats LeanderMomma.  Texas made us all proud and we made lots of new friends as well.  Fixin' to fix the thing that needs to be fixed.  🙂

[utee94]

20 hours ago, natertater21000 said:

This is missing Cedar Park with a 90.65 at BOA SA.

 

😀

[Gotterdammerung]

CP gets mega uber respect!  Great State 5A win!