BOA Waco

[1998-2018]

Hang in there, it's already in the works. My understanding is UIL gives the Directors a significant voice in final approval, requiring a very large super majority to sign off before implementation. Some resistance from traditionalists is likely but the end result should be a big improvement.

  

 

There's actually a lot more to making such changes, but I like your optimism.

Admittedly I focused on the late stages of the process but your comment left me wondering what "more" you are referring to. Do you see a bigger obstacle to change than allowing so many to have a voice in negotiating an updated scoring system?

[Jeffrey L. Gorman]

  

 

 

Admittedly I focused on the late stages of the process but your comment left me wondering what "more" you are referring to. Do you see a bigger obstacle to change than allowing so many to have a voice in negotiating an updated scoring system?

Actually it is more than just Traditionalists who are against changing the judging. There is a strong feeling among the 1A, 2A & 3A Schools against changing the current scoring system.  Most of the directors do not want to Add Visual Ratings in place of the M&M. The fact is that most of the smaller schools are at a extreme disadvantage using this judging system. They do not have the funds to spend on the props and designer costumes used by most of the big schools. These feelings are very strong among schools in rural areas. You may see different judging sheets for Different classes and styles of Bands. Florida already does this. By the way, in UIL it is one vote per school.  While I am sure the majority of 5A & 6A Bands are in favor of these changes(Military Style Bands will vote against it though), there are many small school Bands and they will have their say.

[LostChoirGuy]

You keep saying small schools don't have money as if there is a distinct divide between the rich, big schools and the poor, small schools. Plenty of big schools come from just as poor areas or are poorly funded in their fine arts programs by their districts. When it comes to it, most of the money towards a show is going to come from student band fees. The real question I guess is whether people are willing to pay to participate in the band. If not, then maybe the program has other issues beyond money.

[Astros]

Fund raisers and band fees and it is still a stuggle. I think unfortunately for the schools in the so called poorer schools there is always a limit of how high the band fees can be raised before you loose members. Personally it's a sacrifice for me that I willing to make because I have seen first hand the long term benefits of being a member of a competitive high school band!

[1998-2018]

By the way, in UIL it is one vote per school.

As it should be and I didn't suggest otherwise. In fact, it's exactly the point I made. Building consensus across this large and diverse group is necessary and will be the biggest challenge. Different rules for 1A-3A and 4A-6A is an interesting possible solution. However, it addresses the divide in a way that ultimately fails to reduce it so I wonder how this solution would be viewed. Perhaps it would increase satisfaction for both groups and that would be enough. Much of the division/opposition and resistance to change you described can be (and was) summarized with the word traditionalists but I'm glad you provided additional detail for those less familiar with the issues.

 

In this thread and others you have said small schools don't want to be forced to complete against big schools with big budgets. Could you please clarify this. Others have pointed out that big schools can be financially stressed too but I will concede that a large, stressed school still probably has more band members to spread expenses across thereby lowering individual fees. But only for large props. (All individual costs like travel, uniforms, costumes, flags, rifles, etcetera, would increase proportionally as band membership increased.) I'm more concerned by the breakdown in logic of small schools facing large schools in direct competition. UIL classifications (1A through 6A) specifically prevent this. The concern expressed appears to be a logical fallacy.

[Jeffrey L. Gorman]

As it should be and I didn't suggest otherwise. In fact, it's exactly the point I made. Building consensus across this large and diverse group is necessary and will be the biggest challenge. Different rules for 1A-3A and 4A-6A is an interesting possible solution. However, it addresses the divide in a way that ultimately fails to reduce it so I wonder how this solution would be viewed. Perhaps it would increase satisfaction for both groups and that would be enough. Much of the division/opposition and resistance to change you described can be (and was) summarized with the word traditionalists but I'm glad you provided additional detail for those less familiar with the issues.

 

In this thread and others you have said small schools don't want to be forced to complete against big schools with big budgets. Could you please clarify this. Others have pointed out that big schools can be financially stressed too but I will concede that a large, stressed school still probably has more band members to spread expenses across thereby lowering individual fees. But only for large props. (All individual costs like travel, uniforms, costumes, flags, rifles, etcetera, would increase proportionally as band membership increased.) I'm more concerned by the breakdown in logic of small schools facing large schools in direct competition. UIL classifications (1A through 6A) specifically prevent this. The concern expressed appears to be a logical fallacy.

I have to wonder when was the last time you attended a Marching Contest of strictly Class 1A-3A Bands in the rural parts of Texas. My guess is that it has been many years. 

Last Saturday the 6th of Oct the Irion County HS Band from a school of 181 students marched in the Concho Valley Marching Festival and received a 1st Division Rating, Best in Class Award and Drum Major Award. If you read their facebook page you would notice that the Band works with the Cross country team getting members of the Band from their meet to the contest. Coaches drive the Busses to the Band Contest, and most of the Band is involved in other activities. If you look at the Ratings sheet, none of the Bands in Class 1A were rated on Color Guard. The reason is simple they cannot afford or support a Guard program.

 

In recent years the difference between our small schools and large schools has lengthened . Almost all class 1A-3A school Bands share their members with the football, Cross Country, FAA, and Cheerleaders. Band directors cannot demand their members devote 100% of their time to the Band. It cannot happen and would not be supported.A family with children in these schools might have to support their activities in Band, Football(yes Football players march at Half Time in These Schools(how many 6A schools would allow that. Either you are in or out of the Band program)

 

The fact is that most students in small schools in the rural areas are involved in far more activities than students in major metro areas. Parents have to support many school actlivities and Band Directors have to work around scheduling contests due to conflicting events. Most kids in rural areas are also involved in FFA and work with their families. 

 

Tomorrow, Troy HS Band is hosting a PRE-UIL Marching contest that works with Class 1A-3A Bands. It is held on a weekday since that is one of the few times the Band Directors have total access to their people. I think you and many other folks who are into the Big Programs ought to attend Rural Marching Contests to see why these schools see things differently. My Region has 47 Class 1A-3A Schools, we have 16 5A and 6A schools. 

 

[1998-2018]

I have to wonder when was the last time you attended a Marching Contest of strictly Class 1A-3A Bands in the rural parts of Texas. My guess is that it has been many years. 

Last Saturday the 6th of Oct the Irion County HS Band from a school of 181 students marched in the Concho Valley Marching Festival and received a 1st Division Rating, Best in Class Award and Drum Major Award. If you read their facebook page you would notice that the Band works with the Cross country team getting members of the Band from their meet to the contest. Coaches drive the Busses to the Band Contest, and most of the Band is involved in other activities. If you look at the Ratings sheet, none of the Bands in Class 1A were rated on Color Guard. The reason is simple they cannot afford or support a Guard program.

 

In recent years the difference between our small schools and large schools has lengthened . Almost all class 1A-3A school Bands share their members with the football, Cross Country, FAA, and Cheerleaders. Band directors cannot demand their members devote 100% of their time to the Band. It cannot happen and would not be supported.A family with children in these schools might have to support their activities in Band, Football(yes Football players march at Half Time in These Schools(how many 6A schools would allow that. Either you are in or out of the Band program)

 

The fact is that most students in small schools in the rural areas are involved in far more activities than students in major metro areas. Parents have to support many school actlivities and Band Directors have to work around scheduling contests due to conflicting events. Most kids in rural areas are also involved in FFA and work with their families. 

 

Tomorrow, Troy HS Band is hosting a PRE-UIL Marching contest that works with Class 1A-3A Bands. It is held on a weekday since that is one of the few times the Band Directors have total access to their people. I think you and many other folks who are into the Big Programs ought to attend Rural Marching Contests to see why these schools see things differently. My Region has 47 Class 1A-3A Schools, we have 16 5A and 6A schools. 

 

Please stop making assumptions about me. As a freshman my daughter participated in Color Guard, Theater, and Softball. My niece was in a 3A band and my nephews are in an even smaller band. I went to a relatively small and isolated school too. One of my favorite shows of all time was by a band with 12 members on the field. Besides sounding a bit condescending, nothing you said in any way answered the question I asked you. Was this an oversight or a misunderstanding of my question? Or perhaps it was misdirection and another logical fallacy tactic. I'm genuinely trying to understand your objection because it really seems to be overstated or even nonexistent. We're talking about UIL rules for only UIL competitions. You seem to be getting tangled up in issues related to BOA rules where big and small bands compete by Class but also directly for Finals placement. In UIL small bands only face other small bands and they generally share many of the same challenges. Shows will always scale with budget and school size but that's irrelevant if you don't face those schools. In fact, you have repeatedly complained about this in various forums across this board. Clearly the current UIL rules are not preventing it either.

[whitewing09]

You keep saying small schools don't have money as if there is a distinct divide between the rich, big schools and the poor, small schools. Plenty of big schools come from just as poor areas or are poorly funded in their fine arts programs by their districts. When it comes to it, most of the money towards a show is going to come from student band fees. The real question I guess is whether people are willing to pay to participate in the band. If not, then maybe the program has other issues beyond money.

 

This seems a little myopic for the realty of the situation because there is a distinct divide. Bigger poorer schools struggle with finances compared to bigger rich school just like smaller school (that tend to be from more poor rural areas in Texas) struggle compared to bigger schools. If you look at the very top bands in the state, the majority come from some most affluent parts of Texas. To name a few: FloMo, Hebron, Marcus, Vandy, TWHS, Round Rock, Reagan, and CTJ. That is not to say that bands from less affluent districts can’t be top performers (e.g North Shore and Duncanville), but they are more the exception than the rule.

 

Other than that, if you look at the demographics, a lot of the smaller schools are in areas with nontrivial economical limitations in far reaches of Texas. It’s not that the families ‘don’t want to pay’ fees, the reality is that fees are hard to pay. When you have a family of four with a household income of 40k, something like $2000 per child seems rather steep especially considering the expectation that they will be in multiple activities since it’s a small school. Even $500 can be a lot if you come out to 4A area E where schools have a lot household incomes less than to $30k.

 

Adding a caption that would be more designed focus will cater to bands that can afford to pay more in design fees. It's not just about props and costumes. If you can afford a Wes Cartwright show and you are judged on a caption that awards visual design rather than execution, you are paying for points. Small rural schools generally cannot afford designer shows and often do not have the connections to procure a designer-esque show due to their proximity. 

 

Marching band or any other activity will never be fair just because money talks, but that IS NOT an excuse to make a state sponsored circuit more unfair. 

[GreedyGreen]

Making the argument that students in smaller schools are more involved with student life makes no sense because they are just less involved with band. As an alumni of a 6A program, I can vouch for the COMPLETE time commitment to band. Like literally 6-8 hours per day. And at my school they wouldn’t allow kids who marched the varsity show to be in any other extra curricular activities. In those smaller schools you speak of where kids are a part of 3 or more activities, that it totally their choice. All it means is that less time can be given only to band.

[texkathi]

I found Cap City to be quite odd. Dripping Springs definitely should have been in the largest class because I'm pretty sure they don't have under 160 people.

Dripping has 158, so yes, they were in the correct class at Cap City. Plus in the finals, they beat the larger bands, so guess it didn't really matter.

[texkathi]

You keep saying small schools don't have money as if there is a distinct divide between the rich, big schools and the poor, small schools. Plenty of big schools come from just as poor areas or are poorly funded in their fine arts programs by their districts. When it comes to it, most of the money towards a show is going to come from student band fees. The real question I guess is whether people are willing to pay to participate in the band. If not, then maybe the program has other issues beyond money.

 

This "pay to play" hurts schools in poorer areas/districts. I understand some of the AISD band programs charge over $1000. When you're struggling to feed, house and clothe your kids, hard to pay a fee like that. I think it could be what hurts bands like Travis. I feel about props like I feel about going to concerts these days- if the singers just played and sang, ticket prices would be far less, but now they've got to pay for AV folks, staging, backup dancers, etc. I know I'm "old school", but I don't like all the distractions that can be on a field when they've got props all over the place moving around, the band is doing something, and the guard is doing 2-3 different things. It makes me feel like ADD on steroids. Give me good music, and great drill and good auxiliary units that enhance, rather than distract, and I'm happy.

[texkathi]

This seems a little myopic for the realty of the situation because there is a distinct divide. Bigger poorer schools struggle with finances compared to bigger rich school just like smaller school (that tend to be from more poor rural areas in Texas) struggle compared to bigger schools. If you look at the very top bands in the state, the majority come from some most affluent parts of Texas. To name a few: FloMo, Hebron, Marcus, Vandy, TWHS, Round Rock, Reagan, and CTJ. That is not to say that bands from less affluent districts can’t be top performers (e.g North Shore and Duncanville), but they are more the exception than the rule.

 

Other than that, if you look at the demographics, a lot of the smaller schools are in areas with nontrivial economical limitations in far reaches of Texas. It’s not that the families ‘don’t want to pay’ fees, the reality is that fees are hard to pay. When you have a family of four with a household income of 40k, something like $2000 per child seems rather steep especially considering the expectation that they will be in multiple activities since it’s a small school. Even $500 can be a lot if you come out to 4A area E where schools have a lot household incomes less than to $30k.

 

Adding a caption that would be more designed focus will cater to bands that can afford to pay more in design fees. It's not just about props and costumes. If you can afford a Wes Cartwright show and you are judged on a caption that awards visual design rather than execution, you are paying for points. Small rural schools generally cannot afford designer shows and often do not have the connections to procure a designer-esque show due to their proximity. 

 

Marching band or any other activity will never be fair just because money talks, but that IS NOT an excuse to make a state sponsored circuit more unfair. 

Amen! It becomes about who has the most money, and not about music education.

[GreedyGreen]

This seems a little myopic for the realty of the situation because there is a distinct divide. Bigger poorer schools struggle with finances compared to bigger rich school just like smaller school (that tend to be from more poor rural areas in Texas) struggle compared to bigger schools. If you look at the very top bands in the state, the majority come from some most affluent parts of Texas. To name a few: FloMo, Hebron, Marcus, Vandy, TWHS, Round Rock, Reagan, and CTJ. That is not to say that bands from less affluent districts can’t be top performers (e.g North Shore and Duncanville), but they are more the exception than the rule.

 

Other than that, if you look at the demographics, a lot of the smaller schools are in areas with nontrivial economical limitations in far reaches of Texas. It’s not that the families ‘don’t want to pay’ fees, the reality is that fees are hard to pay. When you have a family of four with a household income of 40k, something like $2000 per child seems rather steep especially considering the expectation that they will be in multiple activities since it’s a small school. Even $500 can be a lot if you come out to 4A area E where schools have a lot household incomes less than to $30k.

 

Adding a caption that would be more designed focus will cater to bands that can afford to pay more in design fees. It's not just about props and costumes. If you can afford a Wes Cartwright show and you are judged on a caption that awards visual design rather than execution, you are paying for points. Small rural schools generally cannot afford designer shows and often do not have the connections to procure a designer-esque show due to their proximity. 

 

Marching band or any other activity will never be fair just because money talks, but that IS NOT an excuse to make a state sponsored circuit more unfair. 

This way of thinking is just looking at one aspect of the problem with wealth distribution though. The part completely undressed discounts those wealthier schools and just sums up their excellence as money and nothing more. There is also a cultural difference that comes through family support and more specifically support of the band program. Just looking at the issue as a problem with lack of money is a dis-service to those bands that have money AND do well. If you compare the number of parent volunteers and how much time the kids form those top schools spend practicing their skills outside of practice I bet you would find a difference that reflects the difference in socioeconomic level as well. It is NOT all about money, but money does have a large part in the success of the program on a presentation level. Not all props are bought and costumes aren't required to change every year for success. The culture of the band and the families involved in the band are equally important, if not more.

[LeanderMomma]

OTOH, Leander is neither a wealthy nor impoverished school. We have our wealthy areas, but for the most part, we are a very middle class school. Typical band fees for us run around $450 to $500 per year. Leander does a lot of fundraising, and amazingly, just raised over $106K at their annual March-a-thon. I remember back when the goal in 2013 or 2014 was only like $20K. They keep setting the fundraising bar higher, and the students and parents keep surpassing it. Very impressive to see how hard they work on raising the needed funds without raising fees.

[MikeKyu]

Cedar Park is very similar to Leander. Fundraising through both the parents and kids has been a godsend. 

[Sparks]

Our band fees are $200 if you work in the concession stand one time.  If you don't want to work, them a $100 non-participation fee is assessed.  We get very little from out district.

[Astros]

Astros sweep pop the champagne! Next game against Red Soxs or Yankees Saturday. I hope Waco ISD stadium has guest Wifi

[GeekyBandMom]

OTOH, Leander is neither a wealthy nor impoverished school. We have our wealthy areas, but for the most part, we are a very middle class school. Typical band fees for us run around $450 to $500 per year. Leander does a lot of fundraising, and amazingly, just raised over $106K at their annual March-a-thon. I remember back when the goal in 2013 or 2014 was only like $20K. They keep setting the fundraising bar higher, and the students and parents keep surpassing it. Very impressive to see how hard they work on raising the needed funds without raising fees.

I saw this online! So great for them, that's just awesome! 

[Dog885]

Dripping has 158, so yes, they were in the correct class at Cap City. Plus in the finals, they beat the larger bands, so guess it didn't really matter.

158? They were that close? Wow! I really did think they were bigger.

[Dog885]

This "pay to play" hurts schools in poorer areas/districts. I understand some of the AISD band programs charge over $1000. When you're struggling to feed, house and clothe your kids, hard to pay a fee like that. I think it could be what hurts bands like Travis. I feel about props like I feel about going to concerts these days- if the singers just played and sang, ticket prices would be far less, but now they've got to pay for AV folks, staging, backup dancers, etc. I know I'm "old school", but I don't like all the distractions that can be on a field when they've got props all over the place moving around, the band is doing something, and the guard is doing 2-3 different things. It makes me feel like ADD on steroids. Give me good music, and great drill and good auxiliary units that enhance, rather than distract, and I'm happy.

Our fair share is 400 I think, for 2017 it was 800 because we went to St Louis.

[Omega]

Okay I’ll add my two cents in here on the UIL judging discussion:

I believe you should add a single GE judge for UIL. Then the split would be 50% music, 33% visual and 12% effect with scoring breakdown. Granted I’m also of the belief that BOA needs to change to a 60% 40% split for performance/design as opposed to the current reverse of that they have now but that’s just me.

 

On the topic of BOA Waco:

I’m looking forward to see what Cedar Park brings to the table as they haven’t added any show since ATX so I think we are due some more show from them.

Hendrickson should be exciting to see how they improve off of ATX.

Dripping I haven’t seen yet and I can’t wait to see what they put on the field after an incredible season last year.

Marcus I’m also looking forward to being pleasantly surprised by as I haven’t seen anything from them yet either.

[LeanderMomma]

Our fair share is 400 I think, for 2017 it was 800 because we went to St Louis.

When Leander goes to Grand Nats, we account for that separately from normal band fees. Leander, like many other bands, uses Music Travel Associates to plan the whole thing, and we make monthly payments to them for over a year. It sure helped us doing it that way in 15/16 because $1300 is a hefty sum for a family to come up with all at once. And that was just for our band kiddo. My hubby and I went as well. We also plan to go back next year even tho we no longer have a child in band. I am already storing up rewards points on my credit card so we can spring for a nice downtown hotel! I love walking around downtown Indy.

[KinDallas]

Marcus is really looking forward to Waco—it’s our first time there! Here’s hoping the rain stays away!!

[Astros]

 

Marcus is really looking forward to Waco—it’s our first time there! Here’s hoping the rain stays away!!

[Astros]

No rain predicted! I am really excited about seeing Marcus!!