UIL 5A State Marching Contest 2025 (Nov. 10 & 11)

[LostChoirGuy]

I'm definitely surprised by some of these results, though I didn't watch this contest so I can't say anything about if I think they were accurate.  Very pleasantly surprised by Hays, Barbers Hill, and Harlingen South.  They all surprised me with higher than expected placements.

Midlothian, Friendswood, and a few others are a bit perplexing to me.

Next year's 5A will look very different.  We could see some new faces in Celina and Panther Creek and if Foster is really moving down, I'd expect them to be in finals here.  Other than that, we will likely see some new faces in finals from our existing 5A groups and I think it will be an Area B vs Area F fight for the podium.

[Tubalord11]

Alright guys, wow some crazy results. I need to watch Richland, Hays and McCallms prelims runs, congratulations to those 3! Other than Lone Star in 9th, I don’t think they got much wrong. I do think today, we saw the effect of slotting be a big part of results, and it’s simply what happens with this many bands at one comp. Am I saying that some groups didn’t deserve it, no. But I mean, idk…something feels off in my guts about some of these numbers. I’m not gonna give names, but seeing certain placements of bands over others when like 99% of people would disagree…idk. Anyways, congrats to our 12 finalist, super excited to see how tomorrow shakes out, hoping LS has a better run, but I didn’t hear anything lol

[astronautika]

11 hours ago, WanderingTraveler said:

Lone Star: ANNNND we are firing on all cylinders right off the bat. Crazy huge sound right off the rip, and we have some woodwinds borderline sprinting across the field. Way to make a statement. Cool visuals as sorrunding the props as they move onto the field. Got some impressive mello runs in the opener, along with some trumpet articulation features. Backfield spread out woodwind arcs spacing is questionable right before the ballad. Great projection from the Woodwinds in their feature to open the ballad, into a very artistically done flute solo. Great backfield playing by the brass. Good clarinet solo to lead us into our ballad hit, well done. Guard work here is simple but effective. Ensemble visual work is good, few individual stick outs. Articulation, especially in the high brass is great in the closer. Great use of the field here, spread across the whole field. Bones really warm timbre in the final chord before running backfield and spreading these road tarps all the way backfields. This show definitely doesn’t lack content. What a journey. Definitely in my top 5 conversation, good job.

Nothing in this real-time review reads 9th to me. And it certainly doesn't read 11 in Brass, 12 in Woodwinds, 10 in music ensemble. Might I have expected lower visual scores after Lone Star's run today due to minor spacing issues? Olay, that would make sense. Except actually, visual and show design were Lone Star's saving grace tonight and music scores are what killed them. By all means, PLEASE help that make sense!

Do I think it's a conspiracy? Absolutely not. I'm truly just trying to understand. But, flip flopping after results (while calling the opinion "subjective") is a bit hypocritical and not super constructive.

[Tubalord11]

Like having 2 area champs not make it when both had really good runs, that’s what doesn’t make sense. And ik it’s a different comp but to tell me they got worse, like idk. I’m not saying the judges don’t know what to do, like someone help me understand. Bc I felt the same way about some of the 6A results but I’m not trying to start something, it’s just somewhat confusing 

[WanderingTraveler]

17 minutes ago, Tubalord11 said:

Like having 2 area champs not make it when both had really good runs, that’s what doesn’t make sense. And ik it’s a different comp but to tell me they got worse, like idk. I’m not saying the judges don’t know what to do, like someone help me understand. Bc I felt the same way about some of the 6A results but I’m not trying to start something, it’s just somewhat confusing 

I would agree with this, especially seeing Vista Ridges placement at both state and BOA… While there are some confusing results, I also do not hear the judges tapes and dont see things from that perspective. 

[WanderingTraveler]

10 minutes ago, astronautika said:

Nothing in this real-time review reads 9th to me. And it certainly doesn't read 11 in Brass, 12 in Woodwinds, 10 in music ensemble. Might I have expected lower visual scores after Lone Star's run today due to minor spacing issues? Olay, that would make sense. Except actually, visual and show design were Lone Star's saving grace tonight and music scores are what killed them. By all means, PLEASE help that make sense!

Do I think it's a conspiracy? Absolutely not. I'm truly just trying to understand. But, flip flopping after results (while calling the opinion "subjective") is a bit hypocritical and not super constructive.

While I understand where you are coming from, Im never going to dog on anyone during my recaps. Im trying to construct a positive and informative audible replay of what happened for those that cant view the performance. Also, as I clearly stated, to me this is top 5 contention, this is my stance, and I don’t agree that it should be 9th (which is why I stated that I have no doubt that it will move up tomorrow). I think it was a bad run, not a nuclear bomb, they will still do well.

[MikeKyu]

40 minutes ago, Tubalord11 said:

Like having 2 area champs not make it when both had really good runs, that’s what doesn’t make sense. And ik it’s a different comp but to tell me they got worse, like idk. I’m not saying the judges don’t know what to do, like someone help me understand. Bc I felt the same way about some of the 6A results but I’m not trying to start something, it’s just somewhat confusing 

Nothing is saying that they got worse. They just didn't exceed the levels of every other band in the contest. I mean, what you're insinuating is that we should just ditch preliminaries and put all of the area champs into a finals and call it a day, until the finals and all but one area champ is victorious. Some areas are deeper than others. You've been around long enough to know this.

Nothing said that bands got worse since area contest the competition just changed

[Anthony V]

Speaking from a more theoretical perspective, here... It may be frustrating, but there's actually a pretty deep-seated ambiguity in how the rubrics are to be applied in particular evaluations. It's true there's an element of subjectivity, if by that we mean judges are fallible and limited. But the very criteria themselves and the way the judges wield utilize them are ambiguous in ways which are usually glossed over when the results do not seem anomalous. How to match a performance element to a number or placement is massively "underdetermined." (It's just as true in music as it is in the sciences.) For instance, how much distinct performance elements of the same kind (this good crescendo, that iffy decrescendo) should be weighed against each other is not amenable to precise calculation. At some level of precision, it's an educated vibe check, and for the most part that's good enough. It's when we get the seemingly anomalous results that we begin asking questions, although the ambiguity was there all along. The range of legitimate interpretation in this activity is probably much wider than almost anyone would like to admit. And it's multiplied by the fact that there's different adjudication systems, too. 

That said, it's not wrong to think that the range should be narrowed in at various junctures -- in fact that kind of discussion is a sign of a community's healthy awareness of shared norms -- but it's also wrong to assume that the missing precision which can trigger anomalous scores is a precision which was in principle available to the judges, or even the chief judge. For instance, it's not impossible that good judging reveals the limits of current judging practices in novel situations (e.g., Hebron at GN 2015), limits which only afterwards reasonably fall into focus so as to be remedied (top half/bottom half). And it's also another matter as to when there's enough of an anomaly that there's a paradigm shift in adjudication expectations. I imagine that, most frequently, designers and educators just change what they're doing and avoid the issue if they can, rather than insist that a particular style be judged/interpreted differently. Or they go to different contests which understand better what they're trying to do. Perhaps for that reason, notwithstanding the nice boxes and terms on the adjudication sheets, differences in judging seem to change more over time rather more like language drift than constitutional amendments (although either can happen). 

I'm just a band fan, so I really can't speak to the concrete details one would hear on the judging tapes for tonight. But I thought to point out how wide the range of legitimate interpretation really is. 

[txband27]

4 hours ago, Tubalord11 said:

Like having 2 area champs not make it when both had really good runs, that’s what doesn’t make sense. And ik it’s a different comp but to tell me they got worse, like idk. I’m not saying the judges don’t know what to do, like someone help me understand. Bc I felt the same way about some of the 6A results but I’m not trying to start something, it’s just somewhat confusing 

Which 2, Tuba??

[crunchycookie3]

It’s a long shot but I’m manifesting an Argyle medal today, excellent positioning to pull it off! Hoping they go back to Grand Nats in the next couple of years, they keep getting better and better with increasing size

[Gpk1968]

8 hours ago, AreaFMaxxing said:

this could be completely unrelated and overreaching (especially after looking at past scores for some bands in state competition), but it does feel weird at minimum that the lead judge (gerry miller) has been heavily involved with Wakeland H.S, having been their founding fine arts and band director for 6 years. of course, looking at past scores they've been consistently 3rd-4th place in state finals, but it still feels odd that uil authorized someone who was so heavily involved in one of the preforming bands to be presiding over this competition.

I will defend Gerry Miller’s professionalism to the grave. He hasnt worked for FISD in about a decade and now is FA director at Coppell. He is the consummate professional and works for UIL to make sure judges (esp those out of state, DCI, and BOA peeps) follow UIL judging rules as they should. He’s oversight and does a wonderful job from what I hear. A few years ago I was worried about one judge because he is a college band director from out of state who had no experience with Texas bands. The dude knocked it out of the park. Why? Because he was trained well. That’s all Gerry. 
 

He works with A LOT of schools as a consultant and designer. Anyone can hire him if they want. Some of his bands don’t even make it out of region, some stop at area, some advance far. I can assure you, he’s not up on the box whispering in ears to get his bands top spots. If so, we would’ve seen Coppell, north Lamar (4a), wakeland, Kaufman, etc. all taking top honors. He also used to work with Melissa, and arguably Melissa has done BETTER this year since they started working with someone else. 
 

I understand the concern, but the HS band community is totally incestuous anyways. Everyone knows everyone, used to work together, is an alumnus of a program, etc. If we can’t pull judges from our high school programs, we wouldn’t have enough judges to get us all the way from region to state. Even the guys down on the field interviewing students are show designers. Pretty much everyone affiliated with the SMBC (aside from Brad Kent himself) has some band they are personally rooting for based on their side gigs/full time jobs. 
 

I know you were not directly accusing him of anything, but this forum can run wild with speculation and I don’t want to see that happen simply because a few bands maybe didn’t have their best runs. Were there some questionable things, yes! I think 5A content scoring looks as questionable at 4As but I’m also not up in the box, nor am I an expert, nor have I been trained as a judge. 
 

Unrelated, but go Argyle! Super excited for you guys. 

[oddlynormal]

Heartbreaking for some of these bands.  However, caution everybody...you cannot compare scores to a few weeks ago at area with a totally different panel.  There is no historical brownie points given anymore.  It is all about what you bring in the moment.  Some of these older perennial finalists just were not up to snuff THIS year.  The top 12 are correct.  Unfortunately, they have to pick 12.  That's how it is.  I do not want to call out any programs because everyone is so strong.  However, UIL will NOT let a band make finals that does not make consistent IN tone sounds the entire program.  You cannot go off the rails tonally ever.  The bands that made top half of finals are pretty much 100% in that category.  Also remember that some of these bands were the big dogs in their area.  Sadly, not all areas are created equal.  You may be the area Z champion, but at state you are not that anymore.  State is the great equalizer.  I think the judging at this contest was a little better than 6A, but 6A was not incorrect either.  We are splitting hairs to get the top bands.  This is the most fair...unfair process that will never be perfect.  The old system was not perfect either.  

 

Congrats to ALL of the bands.  This is probably the strongest 5A contest I've ever seen along with 4A and 6A.   

[lhbenlee]

7 hours ago, BugWub24 said:

I've been following the enrollment numbers being posted on the Dave Campbell website. This rumor sheet is fairly accurate, although there are some mistakes in here. Azle, College Station, and Sherman are not moving up to 6A - each of those schools are all under 2,200 in enrollment, and the cutoff won't go down that much.

All of those LISD schools mentioned are indeed moving up to 6A - all reported enrollment over 2,300. Lake Belton is at 2,253, so we will see with them, but I think they will move up.

Celina and Panther Creek are for sure moving up to 5A.

Leander’s snapshot enrollment went down and is listed as 2263 so not sure that’s a given, although the cutoff could be even lower. 

[Tubalord11]

6 hours ago, MikeKyu said:

Nothing is saying that they got worse. They just didn't exceed the levels of every other band in the contest. I mean, what you're insinuating is that we should just ditch preliminaries and put all of the area champs into a finals and call it a day, until the finals and all but one area champ is victorious. Some areas are deeper than others. You've been around long enough to know this.

Nothing said that bands got worse since area contest the competition just changed

No yeah I know, and i definitely know how some are deeper than others, thats less of the point. And Ik you can’t use area results to predict this because to your point, some are deeper than others. I just find it hard to believe some bands got certain scores in certain categories, but that’s just me. Everyone who made finals deserved it 

[Fluteypatootie]

Do the judges each judge the same category for finals as they did for prelims?

[natertater21000]

I won't comment on a lot of what is being said but there are a few things I think that it is important to consider when loking at these results. 

First and foremost, results from area. I'll go on record as someone who does not think that area results should just be thrown out the moment they are recieved because I think there is some valuable information that can be gleaned from them. That being said, Area was a full week ago for 5A bands. That is 12+ hours of rehearsal time ago, which in an efficient marching program is A LOT of time to improve things. It does not surprise me that a band like Argyle has managed to peak at state and pass up some bands they were behind a week ago. 

Secondly, rubric and judging differences. The state rubric is very different from even the new area rubric that we have. Each judge is judging their specific caption and that caption ONLY. A wide variance of ordinals is to be expected for most bands. The champion is unlikely to have this variance because that is the entire point of this judging style. The band who is most likely to win is the one that is strong across the board. Using Leander as an example, 2nd in ensemble, 4th in woodwind, and 9th in brass is not all that surprising. Enesmble music is a lot more than just who had the loudest impact, Woodwind is a lot more than who played the most notes, and brass is a lot more than who did the most double tonguing. 

Lastly, the one that people like to leave out/talk about the least. Bands at the high school level, even at the highest levels, are not immune to having a less than optimal run of the show. This is especially true in an environment like this. For some of these bands this was their third run through this year in the dome, for others it was their very first. 

There are a lot of factors that contribute to a bands placement. Seeing a placement you disagree with, and reacting with "The judges are obviously wrong and bad" without taking all of these factors into account is the wrong way to go about it. 

[OGFISD99]

Here are my finals predictions.....

Who ever plays the music selections the judges like........ 

[KickSomeBrass]

40 minutes ago, natertater21000 said:

I won't comment on a lot of what is being said but there are a few things I think that it is important to consider when loking at these results. 

First and foremost, results from area. I'll go on record as someone who does not think that area results should just be thrown out the moment they are recieved because I think there is some valuable information that can be gleaned from them. That being said, Area was two weeks ago for 5A bands. That is 24+ hours of rehearsal time ago, which in an efficient marching program is A LOT of time to improve things. It does not surprise me that a band like Argyle has managed to peak at state and pass up some bands they were behind 2 weeks ago. 

Secondly, rubric and judging differences. The state rubric is very different from even the new area rubric that we have. Each judge is judging their specific caption and that caption ONLY. A wide variance of ordinals is to be expected for most bands. The champion is unlikely to have this variance because that is the entire point of this judging style. The band who is most likely to win is the one that is strong across the board. Using Leander as an example, 2nd in ensemble, 4th in woodwind, and 9th in brass is not all that surprising. Enesmble music is a lot more than just who had the loudest impact, Woodwind is a lot more than who played the most notes, and brass is a lot more than who did the most double tonguing. 

Lastly, the one that people like to leave out/talk about the least. Bands at the high school level, even at the highest levels, are not immune to having a less than optimal run of the show. This is especially true in an environment like this. For some of these bands this was their third run through this year in the dome, for others it was their very first. 

There are a lot of factors that contribute to a bands placement. Seeing a placement you disagree with, and reacting with "The judges are obviously wrong and bad" without taking all of these factors into account is the wrong way to go about it. 

You do have valid points but I wanted to correct one thing: Area was just 1 week ago for this group so that is 8 hours of rehearsal time (plus minus football games and BOA if they did that).

[KickSomeBrass]

Just curious: looking at the grading sheet makes me wonder: what is ultimately the point of UIL competitions? Are they grading students or band directors? "Content and design" - isn't this more dependent on which show designer a band program was able to afford rather than students' skill?

 

(This is not meant to contribute to the discussion on this contest's results - just a side question).

[Gpk1968]

3 minutes ago, Tbcord140 said:

Lakeview Cen10 lowkey got robbed... nobodys gon say this but imma bring this up...

I mean, they were only a third place finisher in Area C, which is nowhere near as competitive as some of the other areas.

There are just A LOT of bands competing for only a few spots. Many very good bands didn’t make the cut. This is the elite of the elite. 

[Tbcord140]

1 minute ago, GarbagePatchKid said:

I mean, they were only a third place finisher in Area C, which is nowhere near as competitive as some of the other areas.

There are just A LOT of bands competing for only a few spots. Many very good bands didn’t make the cut. This is the elite of the elite. 

Oh no, I didn't mean state finals... I meant like top 20

[Gpk1968]

5 minutes ago, KickSomeBrass said:

Just curious: looking at the grading sheet makes me wonder: what is ultimately the point of UIL competitions? Are they grading students or band directors? "Content and design" - isn't this more dependent on which show designer a band program was able to afford rather than students' skill?

 

(This is not meant to contribute to the discussion on this contest's results - just a side question).

Content goes much, much deeper than that 

how effectively were the performers utilized?

handling of simultaneous responsibilities 

creativity, originality, and imagination

Variety of expressive elements

Content that challenges

sense of flow, pacing

suitability of music and visuals

nuance, artistry

professionalism

frequency/demand of movement while playing

content with respect to challenge 

involvement

communication of music/visial elements

theres more. I took this straight from the judging sheets, which you can find online 

https://www.uiltexas.org/files/music/State_Adjudication_Sheets.pdf

 

 

[lost]

9 hours ago, AreaFMaxxing said:

from what im seeing, they used a predominant mix of boa judges and dci judges this year, really odd overall.

This is how most band competitions of a high caliber are judged around the country? 

[Gpk1968]

2 minutes ago, lost said:

This is how most band competitions of a high caliber are judged around the country? 

Yes. I mean, who else is going to do it?? If you want marching band experts, seems like that’s the pool you pull from. 

[lost]

If they take it this will mark the tenth year that Cedar Park will be the 5A state champion! A worthy send-off.

Wonder if Rouse, Wakeland or Argyle can have a life-changing performance and jump them in finals. We’ve certainly seen it before, but Cedar Park is also known for performances like these especially in state finals.