1998-2018

No, correct year but the wrong bands and splits. My apologies. Please see below...
 
 
Me too...and getting old sucks. This is what happens when I get in a hurry and work from memory because my wife is waiting impatiently for me to do something she insists in more important than TxBands. I guess she could be correct about the order of priorities, but it seems like a long shot...
 
Please see above... Yes, as you said the point is still valid despite my erroneous example. It was L.D. Bell who went from ahead to behind Keller by a roughly equivalent split and this time we're not talking about a tenth. It was the Coppell swing that was more drastic. I'm very aware of how performance time and order can impact scores as well as the concept that Prelims are for getting the right bands into Finals and Finals are for getting the bands in the correct order. Unfortunately, in this case the additional swings I didn't previously address clearly indicate that without a Finalist withdrawing, another band would have been left out of Finals that, based on the final results, shouldn't have been. I'm concerned this competition isn't big enough to warrant these issues and Jeffery's question may be on the right track. Is BOA having trouble getting all the judges on the same page? I've been doing this a long time and my impression is this is happening more frequently then it used too.
 
The San Antonio Super Regional is big enough to amplify all this but I don't think the additional variable of a two panel judging system contributes in a meaningful way with one possible exception. The reliability of the two panel system is well proven at Grand Nationals, the exception is Semifinals judged by a single panel. If San Antonio is big enough for two judging panels, it's big enough for a single panel Semifinal. The logistics of putting that in place are more complicated them the current solution so the transition to Semifinals will take time.

YIKES! Come on, banddad84...uh...maybe it's time to go walk the dog or something. You regularly make valuable contributions to this forum, but that's certainly not one. So far this season I've been in a self-imposed exile after LeanderMomma unofficially crowned me the King of Unnecessarily Snarky Sarcasm at the end of last season but you just brought me back to ask if I need to abdicate? I recognize the conversation had become contentious and bordered on provocative, but that clearly crossed the line. I've definitely had my moments of weakness too. I know from experience, you're better than that comment would indicate. 
LeanderMomma, in many ways you and your caring nature represent the best of who we are on TxBands and I have felt all along you and I should talk about when I crossed the line at the end of last season. Because you were neither a target of the venom, nor one of the snakes in the grass, my guess is you are probably unaware of the role you specifically played in the early stages of that incident. One of your comments was clearly the fork in the road for me. Now that you are a moderator on the HornRank forum it seems even more important to talk. I take full responsibility for the path I followed and adding you to the HornRank Moderator Team is well deserved. My only hope is you would find helpful insight in hearing my perspective on where I went wrong. Maybe we can find a few minutes in San Antonio. I'd like to clear the air with you.
 
Edit: My sentences should end with correct punctuation.

I'm disappointed to learn I misjudged you. I will update my opinion and expectations accordingly.
 
I also abdicate my crown to you, with a word of caution. An eye for an eye can only lead to an endless cycle of escalation and a blind community.
 
I would also ask, with little expectation that you will listen, that in the future you just skip the "have a great day" nonsense. Your use of that phrase follows an obvious trend and passive aggression is still aggression.

Breakfast for the band kids the morning of the parade was not extravagant, but it was $11,367.29.
 
And VERY early...

To be clear, you didn't say anything to cause my self-imposed exile. I did. I'm just saying there was an early opportunity to defuse the situation and it was missed.

YIKES! Come on, banddad84...uh...maybe it's time to go walk the dog or something. You regularly make valuable contributions to this forum, but that's certainly not one. So far this season I've been in a self-imposed exile after LeanderMomma unofficially crowned me the King of Unnecessarily Snarky Sarcasm at the end of last season but you just brought me back to ask if I need to abdicate? I recognize the conversation had become contentious and bordered on provocative, but that clearly crossed the line. I've definitely had my moments of weakness too. I know from experience, you're better than that comment would indicate. 
LeanderMomma, in many ways you and your caring nature represent the best of who we are on TxBands and I have felt all along you and I should talk about when I crossed the line at the end of last season. Because you were neither a target of the venom, nor one of the snakes in the grass, my guess is you are probably unaware of the role you specifically played in the early stages of that incident. One of your comments was clearly the fork in the road for me. Now that you are a moderator on the HornRank forum it seems even more important to talk. I take full responsibility for the path I followed and adding you to the HornRank Moderator Team is well deserved. My only hope is you would find helpful insight in hearing my perspective on where I went wrong. Maybe we can find a few minutes in San Antonio. I'd like to clear the air with you.
 
Edit: My sentences should end with correct punctuation.

Sound of Silence while the Pit played Beethoven underneath. Shear genius arrangement! Beautiful beyond words. Clean drill too. Probably should have won BOA SA in my book.

People, please go to Indy and see the event before suggesting rotation, or that it could be held at the Alamodome, et cetera. Could and should are two drastically different things. Nowhere else even comes close to what Lucas Oil Stadium, the Convention Center, and the connected hotels and restaurants collectively offer. Even ignoring the huge difference in sound, did you notice AvonDad said 19 degrees with wind chill in the single digits? We sometimes get that here in Texas too. At Indy, literally the only time Texas bands have to go outside is when they get off the bus when they arrive and onto the bus to go back to Texas. Everything else including full size practice space, the stadium, hotels, food, stores, and whatever else you might need is connected by warm indoor walkways. We don't have anything that comes even remotely close to their facilities.
 
Do you remember the Superbowl at Jerry World a few years ago? Is that what you want the best band kids in the country to possibly go through and remember about their trip to Grand Nationals?
 
We all know AvonDad is fortunate to have Grand Nationals in his backyard. The Avon parents I have talked with can't believe how fortunate we are to have the insane level of competition in our backyard. Let's just continue to make the trip. Besides it's part of what makes Grand Nationals special and sooner or later AvonDad is going to throw his trump card and win the hand. He knows Lucas Oil Stadium has escalators instead of stairs.

I've been away from TxBands for a couple days and had some catching up to do. I'm going to skip the quote process tonight and just share a few thoughts directly about what I just read. Some of it may repeat earlier comments to bring them back to the forefront because this monster conversation has been wondering and wagging its tail all through the weeds.
 
First, Mr. Move on, move on, move on... Just because this has happened before doesn't mean it has to happen again. If you're not contributing in a positive way or enjoying this difficult topic, maybe you would be happier if you just take your own advice and move on to another topic. Some of us are trying to explore possible solutions. Others are working through their grief and frustration. Your contributions are often helpful but you missed the mark this time. The same to others of a similar ilk.
 
Second, this is not about Round Rock or just this year. The Round Rock parents seem to understand they are just the latest example of a bigger issue. That point seems to be lost on some of you. Others are discouragingly indifferent.
 
Currently there is no "bad judge rule". That derogatory slang is part of what is confusing this issue. Yes, we need a solution to judging deviation but the perspective that accompanies that slang won't be well received by the UIL. The rule many of you are actually referring to is called the "judges preference rule" by the UIL. It has two main components. Application of one of them correctly advanced Leander to the SMBC where they made Finals. A perfect example of why the rule exists. The other component was rather haphazardly applied at Area B Finals due to the unclear way it was written. It was initially applied in a way that seemed consistent with the intent but was reversed the next day because making the rule scaleable was not expressly directed. Neither Keller or Waxahachie, the two bands involved, seemed overly concerned as both bands were advancing either way. It has be reported that UIL is reviewing and clarify whether or not application of the rule is scalable to include Area results. Understanding the rule and its intent would be helpful for those interested in how UIL currently deals with judging deviation.
 
Saying UIL doesn't care is both inaccurate and unfair. It also reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what and who the UIL is.
 
Saying Directors who just advanced to the 6A SMBC Finals don't care is also wildly inaccurate. These are the Directors most likely to support change. They have all felt the sting of judging deviation many times.
 
It would help if people stopped using the term UIL without understanding it and how rules get changed. For example when you blame "The Government" you are really blaming "We The People". That's who the government is in this country. If you don't like what's happening, get involved and vote. Similarly, when you blame "The UIL" you are really talking about "We The Directors" and how they vote. All the Directors in Texas have an opportunity to fix this in the spring. Some are very concerned about this and other big picture issues. Others could be described as indifferent. A third group is openly hostile to change of any kind. That's why I explained in an earlier post how important it is to know where your Director stands and what they are doing to either influence or impede change.
 
And yes, there is a decoder ring. But even if you have access to one it takes forever to learn how to use it correctly.

I think that’s one of the biggest issues. There would be absolutely no incentive for most bands to travel to Texas if GN were there. For one, the coffers aren’t nearly as deep in other parts of the country to justify only performing once (not that Texas bands go to GN just to perform once, but support for music education is MUCH higher financially and only three Texas bands since 2008 haven’t made Semis). And second, it would ruin the regional diversity we like in an event like that. Even if some bands actually get closer to the venue (looking at you Oklahoma and California), there’s a reason those groups don’t or rarely come to our regionals in the first place.

For those outside Texas this might seem a bit arrogant (we prefer Texas Proud) but has it occurred to anyone else that MFA/BOA wants TeamTexas to travel precisely because it limits the number of Texas bands at Grand Nationals? How many bands from other states would be displaced from Semi-Finals and Finals if everybody at BOA SA and UIL SMBC stayed for Grand Nationals the next weekend? How many good bands from out of state just wouldn't make the trip to Texas because of the very real possibility of only one performance? Part of the fun of Grand Nationals is seeing all the different regional influences on display.

Insane competition - agree.  Escalators - used them to get to the 600 level for semis.  AGREE! 

That made me laugh and I haven't even read what LostChoirGuy said yet.

People, please go to Indy and see the event before suggesting rotation, or that it could be held at the Alamodome, et cetera. Could and should are two drastically different things. Nowhere else even comes close to what Lucas Oil Stadium, the Convention Center, and the connected hotels and restaurants collectively offer. Even ignoring the huge difference in sound, did you notice AvonDad said 19 degrees with wind chill in the single digits? We sometimes get that here in Texas too. At Indy, literally the only time Texas bands have to go outside is when they get off the bus when they arrive and onto the bus to go back to Texas. Everything else including full size practice space, the stadium, hotels, food, stores, and whatever else you might need is connected by warm indoor walkways. We don't have anything that comes even remotely close to their facilities.
 
Do you remember the Superbowl at Jerry World a few years ago? Is that what you want the best band kids in the country to possibly go through and remember about their trip to Grand Nationals?
 
We all know AvonDad is fortunate to have Grand Nationals in his backyard. The Avon parents I have talked with can't believe how fortunate we are to have the insane level of competition in our backyard. Let's just continue to make the trip. Besides it's part of what makes Grand Nationals special and sooner or later AvonDad is going to throw his trump card and win the hand. He knows Lucas Oil Stadium has escalators instead of stairs.

We might just have to make a trade 

Had to laugh.    We have shirts that say "Play on, March on, Rock on, Avon"

I've been away from TxBands for a couple days and had some catching up to do. I'm going to skip the quote process tonight and just share a few thoughts directly about what I just read. Some of it may repeat earlier comments to bring them back to the forefront because this monster conversation has been wondering and wagging its tail all through the weeds.
 
First, Mr. Move on, move on, move on... Just because this has happened before doesn't mean it has to happen again. If you're not contributing in a positive way or enjoying this difficult topic, maybe you would be happier if you just take your own advice and move on to another topic. Some of us are trying to explore possible solutions. Others are working through their grief and frustration. Your contributions are often helpful but you missed the mark this time. The same to others of a similar ilk.
 
Second, this is not about Round Rock or just this year. The Round Rock parents seem to understand they are just the latest example of a bigger issue. That point seems to be lost on some of you. Others are discouragingly indifferent.
 
Currently there is no "bad judge rule". That derogatory slang is part of what is confusing this issue. Yes, we need a solution to judging deviation but the perspective that accompanies that slang won't be well received by the UIL. The rule many of you are actually referring to is called the "judges preference rule" by the UIL. It has two main components. Application of one of them correctly advanced Leander to the SMBC where they made Finals. A perfect example of why the rule exists. The other component was rather haphazardly applied at Area B Finals due to the unclear way it was written. It was initially applied in a way that seemed consistent with the intent but was reversed the next day because making the rule scaleable was not expressly directed. Neither Keller or Waxahachie, the two bands involved, seemed overly concerned as both bands were advancing either way. It has be reported that UIL is reviewing and clarify whether or not application of the rule is scalable to include Area results. Understanding the rule and its intent would be helpful for those interested in how UIL currently deals with judging deviation.
 
Saying UIL doesn't care is both inaccurate and unfair. It also reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what and who the UIL is.
 
Saying Directors who just advanced to the 6A SMBC Finals don't care is also wildly inaccurate. These are the Directors most likely to support change. They have all felt the sting of judging deviation many times.
 
It would help if people stopped using the term UIL without understanding it and how rules get changed. For example when you blame "The Government" you are really blaming "We The People". That's who the government is in this country. If you don't like what's happening, get involved and vote. Similarly, when you blame "The UIL" you are really talking about "We The Directors" and how they vote. All the Directors in Texas have an opportunity to fix this in the spring. Some are very concerned about this and other big picture issues. Others could be described as indifferent. A third group is openly hostile to change of any kind. That's why I explained in an earlier post how important it is to know where your Director stands and what they are doing to either influence or impede change.
 
And yes, there is a decoder ring. But even if you have access to one it takes forever to learn how to use it correctly.

I've been away from TxBands for a couple days and had some catching up to do. I'm going to skip the quote process tonight and just share a few thoughts directly about what I just read. Some of it may repeat earlier comments to bring them back to the forefront because this monster conversation has been wondering and wagging its tail all through the weeds.
 
First, Mr. Move on, move on, move on... Just because this has happened before doesn't mean it has to happen again. If you're not contributing in a positive way or enjoying this difficult topic, maybe you would be happier if you just take your own advice and move on to another topic. Some of us are trying to explore possible solutions. Others are working through their grief and frustration. Your contributions are often helpful but you missed the mark this time. The same to others of a similar ilk.
 
Second, this is not about Round Rock or just this year. The Round Rock parents seem to understand they are just the latest example of a bigger issue. That point seems to be lost on some of you. Others are discouragingly indifferent.
 
Currently there is no "bad judge rule". That derogatory slang is part of what is confusing this issue. Yes, we need a solution to judging deviation but the perspective that accompanies that slang won't be well received by the UIL. The rule many of you are actually referring to is called the "judges preference rule" by the UIL. It has two main components. Application of one of them correctly advanced Leander to the SMBC where they made Finals. A perfect example of why the rule exists. The other component was rather haphazardly applied at Area B Finals due to the unclear way it was written. It was initially applied in a way that seemed consistent with the intent but was reversed the next day because making the rule scaleable was not expressly directed. Neither Keller or Waxahachie, the two bands involved, seemed overly concerned as both bands were advancing either way. It has be reported that UIL is reviewing and clarify whether or not application of the rule is scalable to include Area results. Understanding the rule and its intent would be helpful for those interested in how UIL currently deals with judging deviation.
 
Saying UIL doesn't care is both inaccurate and unfair. It also reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what and who the UIL is.
 
Saying Directors who just advanced to the 6A SMBC Finals don't care is also wildly inaccurate. These are the Directors most likely to support change. They have all felt the sting of judging deviation many times.
 
It would help if people stopped using the term UIL without understanding it and how rules get changed. For example when you blame "The Government" you are really blaming "We The People". That's who the government is in this country. If you don't like what's happening, get involved and vote. Similarly, when you blame "The UIL" you are really talking about "We The Directors" and how they vote. All the Directors in Texas have an opportunity to fix this in the spring. Some are very concerned about this and other big picture issues. Others could be described as indifferent. A third group is openly hostile to change of any kind. That's why I explained in an earlier post how important it is to know where your Director stands and what they are doing to either influence or impede change.
 
And yes, there is a decoder ring. But even if you have access to one it takes forever to learn how to use it correctly.

I am usually in for a good argument - but even I am going to sit this one out -  have a great day 

Reviewing ordinal scores/placements should be triggered by a percentage deviation. An ordinal point swing from 1 to 10 as happened at Area B or 1 to 9 at another Area is much more statistically significant than a swing from 74 to 84 or 100 to 110 as could theoretically happen at BOA SA or Indy Grand Nationals.
 
Percentage statistics are almost always more informative, revealing, and helpful than counting statistics.

As BOA SA approaches I've been wondering if we will hear from some of the Avon parents who joined last year.

We should also keep in mind that a low outlier might be accompanied by a high outlier from the same judge. Or a high outlier can also happen across different judges just like the lows people tend to notice more often. Both ends of the spectrum need to be actively monitored.

I have no doubt Hebron can play and march the Vista Ridge show at or above the level VR did. Do you believe Vista Ridge can play and march the Hebron show at or above the level Hebron did?
 
BOA results seem to agree with me while UIL doesn't seem to care.
 
(Please remember I already said I loved the VR show and their improvement from last year may be unprecedented at this level. I'm just talking about the difference in Judging Criteria.)

The better solution would be for a judge with a history of giving outlier scores to a particular school to not be allowed to judge again. Ever.

I think a not insignificant number of directors would defect from UIL if it weren't for administration/school board/community pressure to stay in.