2025 BOA South Houston (Oct. 4)

[TypicalBandNerd]

1 hour ago, Sideswiperr said:

If there’s something I’ve always loved about cypress woods it’s the sound quality they produce, consistently.

They’re kind of like a mini Carmel or  Marcus, since those groups usually have a more classical/orchestral sound. The overall classical vibe of Woods’ show fits them so well!

[LostChoirGuy]

Anyone else notice that Elkins places third in music and were one out from making finals?  They are honestly a group I haven't really ever heard anything about.

[Sideswiperr]

3 hours ago, LostChoirGuy said:

Anyone else notice that Elkins places third in music and were one out from making finals?  They are honestly a group I haven't really ever heard anything about.

YES

[lost]

On 10/5/2025 at 9:25 PM, tubapop said:

Definitely is. Nobody can quite explain what it means and the closest explanation is just how it makes the judge feel. Eye roll. 

Tell me you don’t understand the caption without telling me you don’t understand the caption. If you’re uneducated you can just say that.

[tubapop]

13 minutes ago, lost said:

Tell me you don’t understand the caption without telling me you don’t understand the caption. If you’re uneducated you can just say that.

Why do you insist on being such an ******* to me? You have a history of doing this. 

And I was quite clear that I don't understand the caption. Need me to say it more plainly? I don't understand general effect. If only educated people like you would deign to enlighten a simpleton like myself. Problem is, you don't understand it, either. You just get off on being a ****.

[TWHSParent]

Let me see if I can help a little beyond "how it makes the judge feel". 

First, basics - as we know, it is split between visual and music. The general areas that music and visual judges are looking at are similar, but with the details obviously split between eyes and ears:

What is the band presenting (show theme, ideas within the show to support the theme, etc.).

From the judges perspective, how well are they presenting within the music and visuals.

Also from the judges perspective, are the various moments within the performance (big musical hits, soft moments, major visual presentations, etc.) well staged and well presented in the flow of the performance.

Note that there can be overlap - did what the band did visually support what they did musically (and vice-versa). In other words, how well does the music design and visual design work together to present the theme of the show.

They are also looking at design (which is partially covered in the staging aspect I mentioned), musical choices and arrangements, and the general flow of the music and visuals through the show from idea to idea. How well does that flow from idea to idea support the overall theme of the show. There is more of course - I am trying to simplify both to try to make it easier to understand, and because we run into the limits of what I understand too!

GE vs performance: GE is mainly about presentation rather than raw performance. This is a struggle to grasp, and it has taken me years to get the moderate understanding I have to where I can generally tell good GE from average GE. I don't have the judges vernacular to express it in their terms, but bear in mind just because the music is played well, or the visuals are clean does not mean that the GE will necessarily be higher than a band with dirtier playing or no straight lines. However, clean music and clean visuals make it easier for the GE judges to see/hear what the band is trying to present.

We also have to remember that the bands are putting on a show that is centered around a theme, not just random music and random patterns on the field. They are attempting to present to the audience through music and visuals ideas and emotions. You can think of it as a book - some authors are better than others in clearly presenting their ideas and in the language choices they make in order to do so. This is the same, and of course at the end it is entirely within the eye/ear of the beholder. Yes, all judging is subjective within boundaries (that are set within the adjudication section of the BOA handbook - I recommend reading through it to get a basic idea) and we will certainly not always agree.

Some show examples that I think can help: Vandegrift's 2017 show Symphony of Silence. At one point they go from their big, rich sound to utter silence, and hold it, then the flute soloist comes in to finish the musical idea. Perfect music GE in support of the show theme (I love that show by the way). They lost GE only to CTJ's monster of a show The Forest Through the Trees (also a favorite and worth watching for GE) that year at SA. I would also suggest watching Ronald Reagan's 2019 show Secret World (which in my opinion is the best written show in recent years, and perhaps ever). Watch how the drill and the music flow together - just exquisite, and in my opinion is the only show in the last 10ish years that I think may be better than Broken Arrow's 2021 show (which is just dripping with GE with the flow, so also a good watch).

Anyway, just my thoughts on the general topic of GE.

[tubapop]

26 minutes ago, TWHSParent said:

Let me see if I can help a little beyond "how it makes the judge feel". 

First, basics - as we know, it is split between visual and music. The general areas that music and visual judges are looking at are similar, but with the details obviously split between eyes and ears:

What is the band presenting (show theme, ideas within the show to support the theme, etc.).

From the judges perspective, how well are they presenting within the music and visuals.

Also from the judges perspective, are the various moments within the performance (big musical hits, soft moments, major visual presentations, etc.) well staged and well presented in the flow of the performance.

Note that there can be overlap - did what the band did visually support what they did musically (and vice-versa). In other words, how well does the music design and visual design work together to present the theme of the show.

They are also looking at design (which is partially covered in the staging aspect I mentioned), musical choices and arrangements, and the general flow of the music and visuals through the show from idea to idea. How well does that flow from idea to idea support the overall theme of the show. There is more of course - I am trying to simplify both to try to make it easier to understand, and because we run into the limits of what I understand too!

GE vs performance: GE is mainly about presentation rather than raw performance. This is a struggle to grasp, and it has taken me years to get the moderate understanding I have to where I can generally tell good GE from average GE. I don't have the judges vernacular to express it in their terms, but bear in mind just because the music is played well, or the visuals are clean does not mean that the GE will necessarily be higher than a band with dirtier playing or no straight lines. However, clean music and clean visuals make it easier for the GE judges to see/hear what the band is trying to present.

We also have to remember that the bands are putting on a show that is centered around a theme, not just random music and random patterns on the field. They are attempting to present to the audience through music and visuals ideas and emotions. You can think of it as a book - some authors are better than others in clearly presenting their ideas and in the language choices they make in order to do so. This is the same, and of course at the end it is entirely within the eye/ear of the beholder. Yes, all judging is subjective within boundaries (that are set within the adjudication section of the BOA handbook - I recommend reading through it to get a basic idea) and we will certainly not always agree.

Some show examples that I think can help: Vandegrift's 2017 show Symphony of Silence. At one point they go from their big, rich sound to utter silence, and hold it, then the flute soloist comes in to finish the musical idea. Perfect music GE in support of the show theme (I love that show by the way). They lost GE only to CTJ's monster of a show The Forest Through the Trees (also a favorite and worth watching for GE) that year at SA. I would also suggest watching Ronald Reagan's 2019 show Secret World (which in my opinion is the best written show in recent years, and perhaps ever). Watch how the drill and the music flow together - just exquisite, and in my opinion is the only show in the last 10ish years that I think may be better than Broken Arrow's 2021 show (which is just dripping with GE with the flow, so also a good watch).

Anyway, just my thoughts on the general topic of GE.

Really kind of you to take the time to write that out. Thank you. I was being a bit tongue in cheek when I summarized it as “how it makes the judge feel,” but after reading through the BOA judging handbook, listening to judges’ tapes, and reading other fans’ attempts to explain/argue about GE, it still strikes me as a subjective word salad that ultimately means “the overall impression it makes on the judge.” I understand in theory the concepts you conveyed in your response, which are similar to explanations I’ve read elsewhere, but I think what I really struggle with is the judges quantifying (and placing such heavy scoring emphasis on) something so subjective. It is easy to quantify content and performance on music and on visuals and to translate that to a score. But the highly subjective and nebulous concept of GE—quantifying that and then weighing it so heavily? And then there’s “audience reaction” — just seems Iike such a subjective thing that can vary wildly for different reasons. I’ve heard tapes where the judge says the audience is on the edge of its seats, but when you scan the audience below, they just look like ordinary folks waiting for the band to start performing. How accurately are the judges perceiving how the audience feels, how many fans of the performing group are seated near the judge and swaying his opinion—makes no sense to me.

Anyway, I’m off to check out the videos you recommended - I’m sure they will help a bit. Thanks again! 

[TWHSParent]

21 minutes ago, tubapop said:

Really kind of you to take the time to write that out. Thank you. I was being a bit tongue in cheek when I summarized it as “how it makes the judge feel,” but after reading through the BOA judging handbook, listening to judges’ tapes, and reading other fans’ attempts to explain/argue about GE, it still strikes me as a subjective word salad that ultimately means “the overall impression it makes on the judge.” I understand in theory the concepts you conveyed in your response, which are similar to explanations I’ve read elsewhere, but I think what I really struggle with is the judges quantifying (and placing such heavy scoring emphasis on) something so subjective. It is easy to quantify content and performance on music and on visuals and to translate that to a score. But the highly subjective and nebulous concept of GE—quantifying that and then weighing it so heavily? And then there’s “audience reaction” — just seems Iike such a subjective thing that can vary wildly for different reasons. I’ve heard tapes where the judge says the audience is on the edge of its seats, but when you scan the audience below, they just look like ordinary folks waiting for the band to start performing. How accurately are the judges perceiving how the audience feels, how many fans of the performing group are seated near the judge and swaying his opinion—makes no sense to me.

Anyway, I’m off to check out the videos you recommended - I’m sure they will help a bit. Thanks again! 

You are pretty much correct about the subjective nature (as I pointed out), but ideally the judge has both the breadth and depth of knowledge, and the experience, to make strong subjective opinions. The challenge I would see is that perhaps the general effect of their comments may not be hitting "box 5" levels of presentation... (yes, my turn at a bit of sarcasm - but with a grain of truth).

[BandAlumMom]

3 hours ago, tubapop said:

And then there’s “audience reaction” — just seems Iike such a subjective thing that can vary wildly for different reasons. I’ve heard tapes where the judge says the audience is on the edge of its seats, but when you scan the audience below, they just look like ordinary folks waiting for the band to start performing. How accurately are the judges perceiving how the audience feels, how many fans of the performing group are seated near the judge and swaying his opinion—makes no sense to me.

Are the judges actually gauging audience reaction?  If so, that would explain some of the tendency for early performance times to do less well - there’s just much less audience, ergo much less audience reaction.

[tubapop]

11 minutes ago, BandAlumMom said:

Are the judges actually gauging audience reaction?  If so, that would explain some of the tendency for early performance times to do less well - there’s just much less audience, ergo much less audience reaction.

Supposedly they are. I just think it's got to be wildly variable and unreliable. 

[TWHSParent]

Here is some wording from the BOA handbook about the audience:

The influence of audience reaction on your impression of program effectiveness should be tempered by the interpretation of it being a genuine response to excellence of Performance rather than the efforts of hometown supporters. A genuine audience reaction to something that left you unimpressed personally warrants credit, for it has achieved effect. However, do not be at all reticent to credit productions that you find to be worthwhile and well done, even though the reaction of the general audience may be cool. The underlying thesis here is: credit that which is well prepared, is performed with excellence and evokes an emotional response.

[tubapop]

10 minutes ago, TWHSParent said:

Here is some wording from the BOA handbook about the audience:

The influence of audience reaction on your impression of program effectiveness should be tempered by the
interpretation of it being a genuine response to excellence of Performance rather than the efforts of hometown
supporters. A genuine audience reaction to something that left you unimpressed personally warrants credit, for it
has achieved effect. However, do not be at all reticent to credit productions that you find to be worthwhile and well
done, even though the reaction of the general audience may be cool. The underlying thesis here is: credit that
which is well prepared, is performed with excellence and evokes an emotional response.

Gonna put on Astros shirt on over my Bridgeland shirt and hoot and holler like crazy 🤣

[BandAlumMom]

14 minutes ago, TWHSParent said:

Here is some wording from the BOA handbook about the audience:

The influence of audience reaction on your impression of program effectiveness should be tempered by the
interpretation of it being a genuine response to excellence of Performance rather than the efforts of hometown
supporters. A genuine audience reaction to something that left you unimpressed personally warrants credit, for it
has achieved effect. However, do not be at all reticent to credit productions that you find to be worthwhile and well
done, even though the reaction of the general audience may be cool. The underlying thesis here is: credit that
which is well prepared, is performed with excellence and evokes an emotional response.

Thank you for posting this - I was not aware this was in there.  I gotta say, though, I’ve gone to a lot of marching contests, and I try to watch as many bands as I can when I’m there.  There’s no doubt that the hometown supporters cheering can affect the way the whole audience reacts, and I think it would be very hard to separate out what’s genuine in this context.

I’ve seen many of these groups of parents not even really paying attention when other bands perform, which I find mystifying.  My kids went to a more mixed school socioeconomically where some of the parents were much less involved (and didn’t attend contests that were, say, across town) and the very involved parents were often busy pushing equipment, etc.  They’re a successful band, but they don’t have a big group of parents sitting together cheering as much as some others.  It’s just been my experience watching lots of different bands that this can affect the overall audience reaction.  So I find it a fairly bizarre thing to include in judging.

[packwick]

in my experience audience reaction does not typically play a huge role in overall effect placements unless the judge is on the fence, which i don't think happens all that often. all the other stuff on the sheets is usually going to outweigh it.

i mean no offence to em, i love Carmel and their shows, but they would never win effect as much as they do if the audience mattered much LOL

[TWHSParent]

4 minutes ago, BandAlumMom said:

Thank you for posting this - I was not aware this was in there.  I gotta say, though, I’ve gone to a lot of marching contests, and I try to watch as many bands as I can when I’m there.  There’s no doubt that the hometown supporters cheering can affect the way the whole audience reacts, and I think it would be very hard to separate out what’s genuine in this context.

I’ve seen many of these groups of parents not even really paying attention when other bands perform, which I find mystifying.  My kids went to a more mixed school socioeconomically where some of the parents were much less involved (and didn’t attend contests that were, say, across town) and the very involved parents were often busy pushing equipment, etc.  They’re a successful band, but they don’t have a big group of parents sitting together cheering as much as some others.  It’s just been my experience watching lots of different bands that this can affect the overall audience reaction.  So I find it a fairly bizarre thing to include in judging.

I've seen the exact same thing you described. Band contest etiquette is another big bucket to dive into...

I think the wording is there to both give the judges a reason to watch the audience, and frankly, a reason to completely ignore it. Within this topic is where you'll hear people say to not applaud another band because it might inflate their score, which I think is complete hogwash. When I attend a contest I'm there to be entertained, and if I'm entertained I'm going to react regardless of who is performing. The audience reaction is only a small part of the caption, so I think it is minor in the overall scores given, at least most of the time.

[BandAlumMom]

1 hour ago, TWHSParent said:

I've seen the exact same thing you described. Band contest etiquette is another big bucket to dive into...

Within this topic is where you'll hear people say to not applaud another band because it might inflate their score, which I think is complete hogwash. When I attend a contest I'm there to be entertained, and if I'm entertained I'm going to react regardless of who is performing.

I’m amazed at the people I see walking up the stairs during performances, etc.  We went to a region contest and two ladies were sitting there *talking* during a performance - like, would they want someone to do that when their band was on?  Craziness.

And yes, I’ve definitely also seen people really not cheer for other bands to where it seemed deliberate - so strange.  I understand being particularly enthusiastic about your kid’s group, but you cheer for everyone.  

But I agree with you - I watch as many shows as I can because *I enjoy watching the bands*!  If I’m already here, paying to get in, I’m not just watching our school, and yes, I’m going to react in whatever way I do.  😁

[youraveragebandkid]

8 minutes ago, BandAlumMom said:

I’m amazed at the people I see walking up the stairs during performances, etc.  We went to a region contest and two ladies were sitting there *talking* during a performance - like, would they want someone to do that when their band was on?  Craziness.

And yes, I’ve definitely also seen people really not cheer for other bands to where it seemed deliberate - so strange.  I understand being particularly enthusiastic about your kid’s group, but you cheer for everyone.  

But I agree with you - I watch as many shows as I can because *I enjoy watching the bands*!  If I’m already here, paying to get in, I’m not just watching our school, and yes, I’m going to react in whatever way I do.  😁

Yeah I was watching one of the videos of my band’s finals run from this comp and there were two ladies who were saying the rudest things! I mean it’s not like I’m hurt if they talk during my performance, but I AM hurt by the things they were saying (because they were talking smack about REALLY good bands)…it’s not only disrespectful but downright unnecessary.