Danpod Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I hate to break this, but I hope the best result comes from this. Mesquite Poteet has been DISQUALIFIED from Saturdays Area C contest.....The new director at Poteet messed up on his papers and instead of lying about it where nobody would have ever known, he told the truth and now Poteet is out. The school has one full day to try and get the band back into the contest..... I hope that they allow the band to compete, seeing as its something so small and he did tell the truth about it, but I don't know to much about how this works or odds, but by the time Poteet plays their football game Friday night we will know 100% if they are going to be in or out of Saturday... I will keep updating this as I get new information, but for now this is what the facts are. What kind of paperwork issue was it? UIL is pretty strict on errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron067 Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 It wasn't a simple paperwork issue. Poteet had an ineligible student perform at UIL. They will perform on Saturday, but if they rank in the top 3, their advancement to State is only official pending some kind of appeals hearing on Monday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danpod Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 It wasn't a simple paperwork issue. Poteet had an ineligible student perform at UIL. They will perform on Saturday, but if they rank in the top 3, their advancement to State is only official pending some kind of appeals hearing on Monday. The Woodlands had this exact same situation go down in 2008, yet they were immediately disqualified. The Woodlands unknowingly fielded an ineligible student at UIL. The student reportedly lied on his grade sheet. Once the directors found out, a call was made to the UIL Office and they were taken out of the State competition. I am extremely curious as to what is really going on here because if Poteet gets to perform and The Woodlands did not, this could make for a big backlash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borchnork Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 It wasn't a simple paperwork issue. Poteet had an ineligible student perform at UIL. They will perform on Saturday, but if they rank in the top 3, their advancement to State is only official pending some kind of appeals hearing on Monday. Monday is D-day then! I agree with Danpod. Anything less than a consistent ruling could cause some EXTREME uproars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txquietone Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 It wasn't a simple paperwork issue. Poteet had an ineligible student perform at UIL. They will perform on Saturday, but if they rank in the top 3, their advancement to State is only official pending some kind of appeals hearing on Monday.Interesting to hear. We will have to wait and see/ Hope Area C has a good alternate just in case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWood Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Cedar Park opened Area D this morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donezo Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 A note on the Poteet case: the student in question is the sound technician, who is not technically enrolled in band or in any other extracurricular activity. Therefore, the student was not included in the automatically generated list that names students who are ineligible for Poteet's extracurricular activities. It was a mistake that the Poteet staff couldn't have really been prepared or expecting to face, as the school's system is actually quite effective at showing exactly who is ineligible. Who knows how the ruling will go. Danpod brought up The Woodlands in 2008, but I think the case of Coppell in 2008 is a better example. In that case, a parent was found operating the sound system at Area C Marching Contest. The band was allowed to participate in the State contest anyway. It was a violation of UIL rules, but apparently not a serious enough one to warrant disqualification. I don't see how an ineligible student operating the sound board at Region is any different from a parent operating the sound board at Area. In any case, this is an almost completely new and very young staff at Poteet. I hope they get the chance to compete and prove themselves on their own terms rather than be disqualified on a trivial technicality. In my opinion, it would be more in line with precedent to let them compete if they advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellopwn1 Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Inelligibility is inelligibility, simple as that. No pass, no play (what I believe is a law?) should trump the Coppell situation you talk of because that is just a rule of the competition and a minor one at that. I think it would be kind of a slap in the face to The Woodlands and all the other groups who unknowingly marched ineligibles and were DQ'd. That's my view, though. It would be awful for Poteet, but it would be consistent on UIL's part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donezo Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 (edited) Inelligibility is inelligibility, simple as that. No pass, no play (what I believe is a law?) should trump the Coppell situation you talk of because that is just a rule of the competition and a minor one at that. I think it would be kind of a slap in the face to The Woodlands and all the other groups who unknowingly marched ineligibles and were DQ'd. That's my view, though. It would be awful for Poteet, but it would be consistent on UIL's part. It's also a UIL law that only students can operate sound equipment at UIL marching competitions, which is why this ineligible student was operating the sound board in the first place. Believe me, I was in high school when the rule changed and it was kind of a hassle. I don't see how that rule is any less serious than no pass, no play. If I were on the Poteet staff, I would use the Coppell example to my advantage. Like I said, that is the clear precedent to me in this case. The student wasn't marching. Edited October 29, 2011 by Donezo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amusicman Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Inelligibility is inelligibility, simple as that. No pass, no play (what I believe is a law?) should trump the Coppell situation you talk of because that is just a rule of the competition and a minor one at that. I think it would be kind of a slap in the face to The Woodlands and all the other groups who unknowingly marched ineligibles and were DQ'd. That's my view, though. It would be awful for Poteet, but it would be consistent on UIL's part. I Completely Agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 It's also a UIL law[...] Ineligibility isn't a UIL rule or law, it is a State law codified and ratified by the State Legislature itself and applies regardless of whether an activity is UIL sanctioned or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donezo Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Ineligibility isn't a UIL rule or law, it is a State law codified and ratified by the State Legislature itself and applies regardless of whether an activity is UIL sanctioned or not. I understand that. However, Coppell arguably also had somebody other than an eligible student performing a role that UIL has decided a student must perform. The student is also technically not enrolled in the PHS band program. It's a grey area and of course we have no way of knowing which way the decision will go. I'm just highlighting that precedent might be on Poteet's side in this case. I don't think it would be some kind of grave tragedy if they got to advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellopwn1 Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 It doesnt make sense to me how a kid not "enrolled in band" operates the soundboard. Even if they don't play an instrument,I think they would still be part of the auxiliary, much like a color guard member or something. Coppell wasn't punished probably because they didn't want to punish 300 kids for the mistake of an adult. This is the kids fault....it's pretty hard to not know you're failing a class and even of they somehow didn't, it's their responsibility to find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donezo Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 It doesnt make sense to me how a kid not "enrolled in band" operates the soundboard. Even if they don't play an instrument,I think they would still be part of the auxiliary, much like a color guard member or something. Coppell wasn't punished probably because they didn't want to punish 300 kids for the mistake of an adult. This is the kids fault....it's pretty hard to not know you're failing a class and even of they somehow didn't, it's their responsibility to find out. Poteet treats it like a volunteer position for students not in the program. The band doesn't really have the numbers to put kids who could be marching and playing on the sound board. In Coppell's case, it was the mistake of the staff for rather blatantly ignoring a well-known rule, but I think the right decision was made in the end. I bet Forney will petition to advance if Poteet is allowed to go, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was approved... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idesofmarch Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 UIL may have more "gray" areas to take into consideration thatn you think. There are also schools who use volunteer colorguard members - not enrolled in bands - to augment their show. They may not be on the rolls, but they have an impact on the performance; much as a student running the soundboard does. Where do you draw the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txquietone Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 It doesnt make sense to me how a kid not "enrolled in band" operates the soundboard. Even if they don't play an instrument,I think they would still be part of the auxiliary, much like a color guard member or something. Coppell wasn't punished probably because they didn't want to punish 300 kids for the mistake of an adult. This is the kids fault....it's pretty hard to not know you're failing a class and even of they somehow didn't, it's their responsibility to find out. Your logic is flawed. Your statement actually should be more supportive toward Poteet. It seems to me to be a much graver problem when the institution violates a know UIL order. Since the student was not enrolled in an extracurricular activity, it is possible he did not know it would cause a problem. We are talking about a teenager..remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellopwn1 Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Maybe they will get off because of the situation you describe....I just didn't know you could practice ten hours a week and go to every football game and competition performing a vital function and not be "part" of the marching band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txquietone Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Maybe they will get off because of the situation you describe....I just didn't know you could practice ten hours a week and go to every football game and competition performing a vital function and not be "part" of the marching band.I also don't know if this was a grade issue or what. If it was grades, it would have only been a couple weeks since the six weeks period was over, but aagin I have not heard the exact violation..just assumed grades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centex_band_mom Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I have a question on another rule for UIL and BOA. Can a director or non-student direct/conduct the band while they are marching in competition? I have seen several directors serve as drum major of sorts and conduct from the pit area and wondered what that was about. I know this thread is about area competitions, so am sorry, but the discussion on rules and such brought this to my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I have a question on another rule for UIL and BOA. Can a director or non-student direct/conduct the band while they are marching in competition? I have seen several directors serve as drum major of sorts and conduct from the pit area and wondered what that was about. I know this thread is about area competitions, so am sorry, but the discussion on rules and such brought this to my mind. Yes, this is perfectly within the rules and is common practice especially in small bands and even in quite a few large bands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centex_band_mom Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Yes, this is perfectly within the rules and is common practice especially in small bands and even in quite a few large bands. Good to know. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubisco Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) I'm glad that Poteet will get to continue on, but if I were from some of the other organizations that were not as lucky, I'd be pretty pissed off at UIL. To quote a TEA question and answer about No Pass, No Play: "Are ineligible students permitted to travel to competitive events with the school group? No. Students must be eligible to travel to competitive events." Failing student = ineligible student = should not have even been at the competition. This is unequivocal. A student operating the sound board for the band is part of the band, whether or not the student participates in band classes, etc. Might I remind people here that band is an EXTRACURRICULAR activity. Technically speaking, all band members are students who throw in time to help out the band after school lets out. I would also like to add that a discussion of precedent here is rather silly. UIL is not a court of law. Rulings of the past do not supplant the existing legislation. Edited October 30, 2011 by Rubisco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I'm glad that Poteet will get to continue on [...] That hasn't been decided yet. The hearing is supposedly on Monday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubisco Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 That hasn't been decided yet. The hearing is supposedly on Monday. Well, then all the previously posted hearsay about Poteet moving on is premature. That said, I'm hoping my response does turn out to be a valid one, because that will mean that Poteet will get to move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txquietone Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 I'm glad that Poteet will get to continue on, but if I were from some of the other organizations that were not as lucky, I'd be pretty pissed off at UIL. To quote a TEA question and answer about No Pass, No Play: "Are ineligible students permitted to travel to competitive events with the school group? No. Students must be eligible to travel to competitive events." Failing student = ineligible student = should not have even been at the competition. This is unequivocal. A student operating the sound board for the band is part of the band, whether or not the student participates in band classes, etc. Might I remind people here that band is an EXTRACURRICULAR activity. Technically speaking, all band members are students who throw in time to help out the band after school lets out. I would also like to add that a discussion of precedent here is rather silly. UIL is not a court of law. Rulings of the past do not supplant the existing legislation. You are partially correct. Band is actually a graded class in high school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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