TWHSParent

I think discussing this in a data driven way is absolutely correct, and I agree. That is why I brought up other aspects of the scoring system that seem to be ignored - I even asked the question in another thread about what the judged deliver. is it a raw score or the ordinal? If a raw score, then the tabulations group will assign the ordinals, and the judges may never see the final rankings until the official release. I think in order to take a full look, we have to understand the entire process. It doesn't help anyone when there is a group that wants pitchforks and torches against a specific judge because that judge allegedly has a historic grudge against a certain band, and that specific judge allegedly caused that band to miss finals. What matters to address the issue is the process. So some questions to help me better understand the process: Does it make sense to have the visual judges at the 30 (or 35?) yard line on opposite ends? What is the origin of that placement? Do the judges deliver just a raw score, or do they send the ordinals to tabulations? Should ordinals be continued or use raw score summations like pretty much every other organization? Should judges for larger contests (25/30+ bands) have training on how to manage scores and ensure more reasonable placements? I'm sure there are many other questions that can help better understand the process. It is the process that needs to be understood, reviewed, and potentially changed in order to address shortcomings. Leave the emotions out of it. Emotionally driven arguments will get no changes in the process.

That is a very strong statement. RR needed 21st to advance on judges preference (assuming all other things remain the same). What if that judge had them 22nd? Would we still be having this discussion? Suddenly the numbers aren't nearly as out of whack as they appear at first look now, but the result doesn't change. If judge 1 would have had an ear transplant then things change too. I certainly haven't looked into the history of that judge - maybe he has a grudge against TWHS? Or maybe he was doing the numbers management a little more correctly. Judge 5 should have given himself more room to place the bands, so his numbers management was off. That is a killer for an ordinals based system such as UIL. So I agree something needs to be done, but I think the focus should be in a different direction to address this discrepancy. Get rid of ordinals? I think judge 5 underscored us as we were first off the line, thinking he needed more room above our score. That likely caused the dam of bands between TWHS and RR on his ledger, and maybe a couple he put ahead of us to try to ease the pressure. Judge 4 gave us a (IMO) more correct score and didn't have this issue, even with a similar scoring margin. Of course that is my opinion based upon my reading of the detailed results. And yes, the raw scores matter, especially when a judge paints themselves into a corner right off the bat. This could be a focal point for training judges. Do people not care? Call BS on this. People care (including me), but I care more for the experience of my senior than for someone else's senior, as parents do in this situation. I'm not sorry it worked out the way it did, so I won't pretend otherwise. I have a lot of respect for Round Rock's program and gladly applaud their efforts and shows over the last 4 years and going forward, and I always feel bad for the bands that are just out of finals at any contest (because you never know when that will be you). I also think our show was better this year, and RR did not deserve to be in finals over TWHS (as I stated earlier in this thread). Frankly I haven't seen one of the posters even give a thought for the reversed outcome. Do you not care about that impact? Why is this just a one way street? Because most of the posters are from the Austin area?

So from a different perspective.... I'm going to go to the gaps of the raw scores, as that is the actual output of the judges and shows where they evaluated bands relative to each other: Music (all in favor of RR): Judge 1 gap: 123 points (6 bands in gap) Judge 2 gap: 2 points (no bands in gap) Judge 3 gap: 9 points (1 band in gap) Visual (all in favor of TWHS): Judge 4 gap: 83 points (4 bands in gap) Judge 5 gap: 103 points (17 bands in gap) My view of this is that the outlier is not judge 5. Judge 5 may have had numbers management issues, which is something else to address, but the point gap in the raw score is in line.

Are the judges putting forth an ordinal or a raw score, and the ordinal is applied at tabulation? Do the judges even know what the ordinals are before the final sheet comes out?

TWHS does not have a JV band at all. All band members are eligible for the "varsity" band. That being said, the positions are competitive, and therefore not every member gets to play an instrument during the show. Those students that do not will run the props. I don't know the exact ratio, but the large majority of band members are in the performance part of the marching band.

Another large score increase (and then decrease) that came to mind was Harrison, GA in 2015. In GN prelims they scored 88.50, in Semi-Finals they scored 94.20 (+5.7!). They dropped to a 90.25 in Finals (-3.95). Big jumps both directions for them that year.

By points: 1. Vista Ridge +3.025 More than double the next highest increase. Great Job! How unusual is such a jump? The last comparable one that immediately comes to mind is the jump Cedar Park had at Grand Nationals in 2016, which was +2.850 between semi-finals and finals. I'm sure its happened previously, but I don't have time to check. 2. Flower Mound +1.450 3. The Woodlands +1.400 4. Hebron +1.250 5. Ronald Reagan +0.900 6. Leander +0.875 7. Claudia Taylor Johnson +0.600 8. Vandegrift +0.250 9. Cedar Ridge +0.075 All other bands had a decrease in score All the top 7 had a score increase, only 2 of the bottom 7 did. By Placement: 1. The Woodlands +4 2. Vista Ridge +3 (tie) 2. Cedar Ridge +3 (tie) 4. Flower Mound +1 No other bands improved their placement in finals. 2 upward movers in the top 7 (the 2 with the largest score increases), and 2 upward movers in the bottom 7 (the 2 that increased their scores). Leander did jump over Vandegrift in Finals, but due to Vista Ridge's rocket up, they maintained their placement. Marcus jumped over Hendrickson, but due to Cedar Ridge and The Woodlands jumps, actually dropped 1 placement.

Since we were the 12th place band in prelims, I've been reluctant to comment. I also have my biases, and I will clearly state that in my opinion Round Rock should not have been in finals over us this year. We were fully expecting that going first with such a deep field in 6A (and I recognize that Cedar Park won 5A last year going first, but 5A lacks the depth of 6A) would be almost problematic. So what's the answer? Take 11th, 12th, 13th, and 14th and have a march off on an even playing field? Top 2 advance? That gets rid of the timeslot issue (and it is an issue - going first will always push a score down in a strongly competitive contest), and allows direct comparison to get the right bands in finals. Congratulations to Round Rock for a very strong push at the end of the season. I've been a fan since I started paying attention to marching band again in 2015. It was especially great to see your program make finals at GN last year - the excitement from your kids was a sight to see. I was excited that our kids put a strong enough performance out there from the 1st slot to stick in the top 12 throughout prelims, and back that up by jumping to 9th in finals (interesting that we were 12th after both prelims this weekend, and jumped to 8th at BOA and 9th at UIL after finals). Everyone did a great job, and it was a pleasure watching the programs put out their best efforts.

And of course if you are the football team, most of those go away or are relaxed, and you can even get truly serious corporate sponsors too! If districts are unable or unwilling to fund the music programs appropriately, then these restrictions on fundraising make no sense - let the programs fundraise (within whatever the law allows for non-profits) to support their needs. I'm curious about any rules against donations to a particular program. If a group of parents created an unofficial band booster group (call it something like "<community X> music appreciation organization" and register as a non-profit) and could specifically donate to the needs of the music program would this be a way to move forward (via anonymous donations)? Without reading the rules that are in place I have no idea, but an official band booster group would be hamstrung by the rules of the district. I dunno what the answer is, but I do know that the marching band community is growing, and wielding more influence year by year. Sometimes we have to let the administrators know this.

Hornrank is BOA focused, with just a little influence from UIL due to the differences between the systems.

The only way to back this up is to listen to every single commentary for every single band from the judges to determine if their commentary matches up with their evaluation. So this could be done if UIL chose to do so. If a judge backs up their placement with their commentary, then there is no prejudice against a band, but there might be against a certain style. And that is OK for a judge - they are judging against their preferences within the guidelines set by UIL. Those guidelines don't say "you have to love DCI sounding horn lines" or "you have to love concert band sounding ensembles" or "you have to hate <insert school name>". Do I always like the results? Of course not. I'm still trying to figure out why the VPI judge at GN last year gave us 12th in finals (with a score in the 16 range!?!). He obviously saw something he didn't like (so I assume), but it was an outlier from the previous rounds and the other finals judges. There will always be questions, especially when it goes against your band.

Houston area bands were 9th, 14th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 23rd, 24th, 26th, 27th, 28th, 31st, 32nd, 33rd, and 35th (apologies if I missed anyone). The 2 LISD's and the NEISD are the strongest 6A districts in the state, with KISD and CISD perhaps a step or so behind. This means the Houston districts need to support the competitive aspect of Marching Band more than the "football" aspect. Frankly band is about band, not about football (maybe once upon a time 80 or so years ago it was different), and until some of the stick in the mud administrators in Houston either change their views (Ha!) or move on, it will remain this way. I honestly don't know how we are able to compete at the level we do with such old mindsets still entrenched in various parts of our district. This is, of course, my opinion. I'll also state my opinion on Houston in general - it remains a "good ole boy, just get er done, I don't have to follow no rules, darn the consequences" culture from the oil business that I find distasteful. This permeates almost everything on the political and administrative level throughout the region. Ok, so now that I've put out there what I really think I probably need to go into hiding ....

For those curious, the ordinal spread between 12th and 13th was 13. Round Rock and Oak Ridge tied with judges preference going to Round Rock.

So we survived the dreaded #1 draw, if barely. The kids are thrilled!

Has that happened before I wonder? First to go on, then last to go on?

Solos sound good in the dome.

I think it is quite enjoyable. Lots of great shows!

Good start to the morning!

I think the psychedelic garden is actually multi-cellular life. The show starts with single-cells scattered across the field, during certain times, the cells meet up, and sometimes they connect, creating more complex forms. Ultimately all the cells come together forming complex cells and more complex life. My take on the theme of Floridly Primordial....

Band has a football game tonight, so I won't be there until tomorrow morning somewhere between 9:30 and 10:30.

I'll add that looking at BOA only through the optics of Texas is a major mistake. Outside of Texas, A and AA bands thrive in BOA contests. If you check contests outside Texas, you'll see several AA and some A bands in finals at multiple regionals. Only a couple AA bands make GN finals, but several make semi-finals on score. It isn't just socio-economics - many of the successful A and AA programs outside of Texas are completely comparable to the programs in Texas in that area. It is about focus. There is nothing wrong with focusing on UIL and making that your goal. If a top A or AA program in Texas decided to focus on BOA, and started putting out programs designed to be successful they would do well, and would make some regional finals. The challenge in Texas isn't BOA vs. UIL, it is the fact that Texas has so many strong AAA and AAAA programs that the smaller schools actually can't compete in Finals. BOA loves Texas for the large bands (I bet there are more AAAA bands in Texas than the rest of the BOA circuit combined, but I haven't actually checked). That said, they would also love for a smaller school from Texas to become a strong competitor in the smaller classes. So basically if a band in Texas focuses on UIL, that is great for them. If a band focuses on BOA, that is also great for them. That is a program choice. The exposure level between the 2 is dramatically different, as BOA gives a national audience vs. a regional audience for UIL. All state circuits have that issue vs BOA. I think I'll mostly leave the corp vs military style alone, with one comment - BOA is a national circuit, and outside of Texas there are essentially 0 military style programs, so there should be zero expectations that BOA will cater to anything military style.

  One small correction - The Woodlands was 3rd, The Woodlands College Park was 16th.

UH performed at the Houston Regional this year. Lamar performed at Area F, and they are also performing at BOA San Antonio Saturday night after finals. I think much also rides on where the bands are in relation to each contest. Since these happen on Saturdays, the college bands are very much tied to the football schedule. All that said, I agree - getting the big ones in would be great! Oh, and the college programs are absolutely interested, it is a matter of schedule and travel.

TWHS is now 6-2, and have qualified for the playoffs. They play Klein Collins on Friday with the winner winning the district. TWHS is 6-0 in district, Klein Collins is 6-1 in district (9 total teams in the district).

My vote is also high cam. Multi-cam has a tendency to jump away from important parts of the show at just the wrong moment, and it drives me crazy!