do away w/ GE?

[packwick]

im bored and want to start a topic.

i guess if GE were eliminated id be afraid that shows would devolve into boring technical exercises w/o much artistically interesting or compelling about them, also would make part of my training irrelevant. buuuut i also can't shake the feeling that there's already A LOT of overlap w/ the upstairs performance judges who like GE judges look at performance and at content, including from an artistic perspective and not just difficulty. 

def think 60% effect in BOA is too much, too easy to throw a contest. id prefer a system that is closer to DCI. 30% music - 1 onfield winds judge (sheet subdivided beyond what/how into brass/woodwinds), 1 onfield perc judge (sheet subdivided into front ensemble/battery), 1 upstairs ensemble judge. 30% visual - 1 onfield judge trained in dance not just marching, 1 color guard/auxiliary judge located mid-stands, not pressbox, to more accurately assess non-toss vocabulary and excellence, 1 ensemble judge. 40% effect - one visual, one music, DCI doesn't have sep sheets anymore but the split persists regardless. net total addition of 1 judge for BOA which is the least they could do considering they're the only of the big 3 marching arts orgs not to do double panels for major events.

for groups w/ dance teams not guards the question for the aux judge becomes, does the movement vocabulary and excellence of this dance unit exceed the total dance and equipment vocab/excellence of the neighboring guard unit? the bar for dance skills SHOULD be higher for those groups that don't display a full range of equipment skills. like duh.

aaaanyway, dream away, y'all!!!

[TWHSPercDad]

7 minutes ago, packwick said:

im bored and want to start a topic.

i guess if GE were eliminated id be afraid that shows would devolve into boring technical exercises w/o much artistically interesting or compelling about them, also would make part of my training irrelevant. buuuut i also can't shake the feeling that there's already A LOT of overlap w/ the upstairs performance judges who like GE judges look at performance and at content, including from an artistic perspective and not just difficulty. 

def think 60% effect in BOA is too much, too easy to throw a contest. id prefer a system that is closer to DCI. 30% music - 1 onfield winds judge (sheet subdivided beyond what/how into brass/woodwinds), 1 onfield perc judge (sheet subdivided into front ensemble/battery), 1 upstairs ensemble judge. 30% visual - 1 onfield judge trained in dance not just marching, 1 color guard/auxiliary judge located mid-stands, not pressbox, to more accurately assess non-toss vocabulary and excellence, 1 ensemble judge. 40% effect - one visual, one music, DCI doesn't have sep sheets anymore but the split persists regardless. net total addition of 1 judge for BOA which is the least they could do considering they're the only of the big 3 marching arts orgs not to do double panels for major events.

for groups w/ dance teams not guards the question for the aux judge becomes, does the movement vocabulary and excellence of this dance unit exceed the total dance and equipment vocab/excellence of the neighboring guard unit? the bar for dance skills SHOULD be higher for those groups that don't display a full range of equipment skills. like duh.

aaaanyway, dream away, y'all!!!

Definitely worthy topic for reflection and discussion!

[Tubalord11]

30 minutes ago, packwick said:

im bored and want to start a topic.

i guess if GE were eliminated id be afraid that shows would devolve into boring technical exercises w/o much artistically interesting or compelling about them, also would make part of my training irrelevant. buuuut i also can't shake the feeling that there's already A LOT of overlap w/ the upstairs performance judges who like GE judges look at performance and at content, including from an artistic perspective and not just difficulty. 

def think 60% effect in BOA is too much, too easy to throw a contest. id prefer a system that is closer to DCI. 30% music - 1 onfield winds judge (sheet subdivided beyond what/how into brass/woodwinds), 1 onfield perc judge (sheet subdivided into front ensemble/battery), 1 upstairs ensemble judge. 30% visual - 1 onfield judge trained in dance not just marching, 1 color guard/auxiliary judge located mid-stands, not pressbox, to more accurately assess non-toss vocabulary and excellence, 1 ensemble judge. 40% effect - one visual, one music, DCI doesn't have sep sheets anymore but the split persists regardless. net total addition of 1 judge for BOA which is the least they could do considering they're the only of the big 3 marching arts orgs not to do double panels for major events.

for groups w/ dance teams not guards the question for the aux judge becomes, does the movement vocabulary and excellence of this dance unit exceed the total dance and equipment vocab/excellence of the neighboring guard unit? the bar for dance skills SHOULD be higher for those groups that don't display a full range of equipment skills. like duh.

aaaanyway, dream away, y'all!!!

I 100% agree that it should be 30,30,40! Especially for bands here in Texas who also have to “worry” about UIL, I think it would be fair so they don’t have to worry to much about loading their shows with GE, and can score well with just sounding and marching well with a sprinkle of GE. 

[Rubisco]

Like you, I would be a little worried about artistry getting thrown out of the window. At its core, this activity is about creating art. It's not simply a sport. It's really not possible to judge it completely objectively. Indeed, all the captions are quite subjective, not just General Effect.

[oddlynormal]

Or...and hear me out...

Perhaps the most effective thing you can be is excellent at what YOU do.  You are not generally effective if the core of fundamentals aren't up to par.  You can do all of the fluffy dances and what not, but until you maximize the performance side of the sheet you are NOT generally effective.  If we just got back to that the world would be a much happier place.   The days of UIL and BOA finals looking very different are over.  I think we are in a good spot here in Texas and abroad.  I think young people have the wrong idea of what GE actually is and assume it is all design based.  SOME of it is design based, but a good judge would not really award that unless it is well performed and...well...generally effective.  

[Rubisco]

7 minutes ago, oddlynormal said:

Or...and hear me out...

Perhaps the most effective thing you can be is excellent at what YOU do.  You are not generally effective if the core of fundamentals aren't up to par.  You can do all of the fluffy dances and what not, but until you maximize the performance side of the sheet you are NOT generally effective.  If we just got back to that the world would be a much happier place.   The days of UIL and BOA finals looking very different are over.  I think we are in a good spot here in Texas and abroad.  I think young people have the wrong idea of what GE actually is and assume it is all design based.  SOME of it is design based, but a good judge would not really award that unless it is well performed and...well...generally effective.  

I'll admit I'm a little confused. Aren't you just reiterating Patrick's point here? That the overlap between the performance captions and effect captions is high enough that GE might not be necessary? Can you provide some clarification?

[packwick]

10 hours ago, Rubisco said:

I'll admit I'm a little confused. Aren't you just reiterating Patrick's point here? That the overlap between the performance captions and effect captions is high enough that GE might not be necessary? Can you provide some clarification?

reiterating it, hmmmm not quite, supporting it, yes.

def performance plays a big role in effect, and content also plays a role in perf, that would be part of the rationale for not having the two be separate things. in wgi, we often talk of design analysis (the BOA equivalent of ens vis btw for those who don't know) as being "visual GE w/o a soul" lol. coincidentally i was just watching a bunch of judge tapes, newbies will notice right away that GE judges often focus on things that sound like they belong more on the perf sheets, tuning, releases, tone quality, ensemble balance, whatever. this makes sense, as communicating the intent of a program requires a solid performance. buuuut but, as an aside, sometimes judges become very narrow minded in this focus, let their pet peeves overwhelm everything else on the sheets. for example i listened to an absolutely horrible music GE tape from a longtime BOA judge that for several minutes focused on almost nothing except percussion overwhelming the balance of the ensemble. plenty of other things to talk about on that sheet, but the judge seemed to have limited powers of comprehension.

ooooopsie! did i say that out loud? oh well! LOL. never been one to mince words, or suffer fools gladly for that matter. im like the b****y character on every reality TV competition show who shows up and is immediately like, I'm not here to make any friends!! LOL

[Rubisco]

19 minutes ago, packwick said:

im like the b****y character on every reality TV competition show who shows up and is immediately like, I'm not here to make any friends!! LOL

But you did! Didn't you? At least, sort of, right? Internet friends? 😅

[packwick]

28 minutes ago, Rubisco said:

But you did! Didn't you? At least, sort of, right? Internet friends? 😅

no.

 

 

 

 

jk jk. some of u are a'ight. hold on, where's that Meredith Brooks song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ivt_N2Zcts

there we go.

[oddlynormal]

I can do a catch all response I guess.  

My point is that General Effect needs to be clearly defined as a higher level of achievement and expectations.  As I mentioned before you can do all of the content mess the world and if it is badly performed you are not generally effective.  At the end of the day the level at which what is performed matters more to me than WHAT is performed.  Checking off boxes to satisfy a criteria can be a dangerous game.  I am not saying marching band needs to go back to what it was long before our day, but I do fear that design considerations are really starting to out weigh the level at which musical and visual items are performed.  I get that GE is subjective and everyone has their own loosely definition of it.  However, I will always err on heavy weight being placed on performance considerations before I even give credit to design or "content."  I suppose I am a little bit more old school than I would like to admit, but I am far more impressed with a band that does the basics really well before the do all of the other stuff.  With that being said, the big dog schools consistently in state finals DO that very well.  I don't want to do away with GE, but the perception of it surely should be placed on achievement before content.

[packwick]

2 hours ago, oddlynormal said:

I can do a catch all response I guess.  

My point is that General Effect needs to be clearly defined as a higher level of achievement and expectations.  As I mentioned before you can do all of the content mess the world and if it is badly performed you are not generally effective.  At the end of the day the level at which what is performed matters more to me than WHAT is performed.  Checking off boxes to satisfy a criteria can be a dangerous game.  I am not saying marching band needs to go back to what it was long before our day, but I do fear that design considerations are really starting to out weigh the level at which musical and visual items are performed.  I get that GE is subjective and everyone has their own loosely definition of it.  However, I will always err on heavy weight being placed on performance considerations before I even give credit to design or "content."  I suppose I am a little bit more old school than I would like to admit, but I am far more impressed with a band that does the basics really well before the do all of the other stuff.  With that being said, the big dog schools consistently in state finals DO that very well.  I don't want to do away with GE, but the perception of it surely should be placed on achievement before content.

i think the current system would be okay for you then since achievement and content are symbiotic. if your drill is filthy i can't tell if the content is good. even tho the BOA effect sheet in its current form doesn't explicitly give performance primacy over repertoire, most GE judges wont fully credit all the fancy design crap if it's performed badly. that said GE IS the totality, or is supposed to be anyway, so performance shouuuldn't be the only consideration, even if it holds major sway.