takigan

I don't think it has anything to do with Argyle losing their touch....Ranchview was the Honor Band runner-up last go-round. So since North Lamar (the band that beat them and became the Honor Band) isn't competing for obvious reasons, the only band that is really standing in their way of winning it all is the 2009 champ who was ineligible to compete back in Summer 2010: Argyle. Normally, they'd both get to advance, though there was a bit of an anomaly this year in Frisco Lonestar. 3A's like Argyle, Ranchview and Lone Star are unusual. They're situated in the middle of an expanding metropolis. If a school is built in such a rapidly growing area, it's usually designed to house as many students as possible (thus becoming a 4A or 5A school by default) to facilitate the growth. So these "suburban 3As" are quite rare. The overwhelming majority of 3As in this State come from small towns. The name of the school is often also the name of the town. The band then inherits the challenges of small-town culture....challenges which make it harder for them to compete on a broader stage. Schools like Argyle and Ranchview are more similar to Marcus, or Cedar Park, or the Woodlands than they are to their other 3A bretheren scattered across the plains and pastures of the state. Take a typical Texas 3A kid. We'll call him Jack. Jack's dad drives a truck and his mom runs a cash register in the mornings while Jack and his siblings are at school. His dad probably hates him for not making the Football team like he did back in the day, but is at least glad he's on the drumline and not the colorguard because "He didn't raise no fag son". The practice field he marches on is grass and borders a cow pasture. The head director was mowing the field himself using a riding mower from the groundskeeper's shed to keep the grass short, but weeks of marching rehearsal has worn the grass down to a plot of hard dirt. The High School has one band director, though the junior high director is often there after school...there's also a colorguard person who comes by sometimes. Jack was late to rehearsal because the chickens got out of their coop and he had to go chase them down. The snare drum he plays on is the same his uncle played on when he was in the band 20 years ago. He takes drum lessons from the drumset player at their church, but the drumset guy has never played Marimba in his life, so Jack is pretty much out of luck on getting someone to help him with his region music as the nearest music college is over 100 miles away. Ranchview HS is in Irving: a large city with over a quarter million people. The school houses all of 800 kids 9-12....basically all the High School kids in the Valley Ranch subdivision. 1 in 4 students are of Asian descent. The number of students enrolled in Gifted/Talented is twice the state average. The average graduating senior earns $12,000 in scholarships to pay for their college. The student here is named Johnny. Johnny's dad sells insurance and mom does graphic design for a small startup. Their combined income is $70,000/yr. They live in a 2 story house in the 'burbs and they just bought Johnny his own pro-level Trombone, recommended to him by the Trombone Teaching Assistant from UNT who he studies with. This grad student is also teaching him Baritone so he can try out for Spirit of Atlanta in the summer, where he techs the brass. Johnny wants to be a music major. His parents are ok with this, but they'd really prefer he go into business "because there's no money in music". My heart goes out to the teachers who can take a band program like Jack's and hold their own against a band program like Johnny's. [Although my scenarios references true statistics, specific programs and people, the scenarios painted are purely hypothetical with regard to the relevant statistics they're based on]

Full-size marching hornlines inside auditorium acoustics sounds so epic!

Don't really feel like digging for any inside info, but what I do know offhand from listening to it is that their opener is the Strauss Vienna Philharmoniker, and the 2nd piece with the soloists is 'Queen of the Night' by Mozart. There's another part in there that I recognize from Liszt's "Les Preludes", though I'm not sure how much of the remainder of the show is Les Preludes and what might be some other selections (it's been like 10 years since I played the band transcription of Les Preludes).....not sure about the rest.

This is depressing. Back when this site first started, most of the people who posted were members of Texas HS bands with only a few older alumni from the MFA/BOA forums who would lurk and post every so often. Now most of those original users have become alumni and the site hasn't gained a whole lot of regular new blood to fill in the student userbase. By all means, if you're a high school band kid who's band director hasn't forbade you from posting on internet forums/Youtube videos (and there are many who have--for good reason), PLEASE POST IN THESE FORUMS! We need more of you. As long as you're humble, mature and don't trash talk other bands, nobody's going to jump on you for not being "up" on the lingo and know-how of band culture in the state that the regulars tend to toss around. They might correct you on inaccuracies, but you'll learn something in the process.

There's not a whole lot you can do as an individual to boost the abilities of even a single section of the band if the culture of the band as a whole is one of the mind that mediocrity is a perfectly acceptable goal. And your situation is not uncommon. It happens a lot to High School students who march corps over the summer, come back to their HS in the Fall with eyes opened to what a powerful experience Field Marching can be. They want their peers to realize this, but they don't realize that the experience they had was possible because of a culture that allowed it. That marcher's own personality, commitment to perfection and love of music is what brought him to that stage and it too was a small piece that contributed to the surreal experience that a summer in DCI gave to all those involved. The students at this person's High School were incapable of experiencing this because there is no shared culture....no shared vision for establishing that culture. They can only know what they know and do what is expected of them; there is nothing else. Sharing the experience of Drum Corps can be enlightening to some of these students, but simply learning and knowing about it doesn't carry any kind of intrinsic relevance that will somehow inspire the band to want to improve themselves en masse. My point is the culture itself has to change for it to be the band you want it to be....this means you need a leader (director) who has a clear vision and a means of articulating it to his students. If you don't have this then there isn't a whole lot you can do to change the band. The best you can do is serve as a good example...You don't go about doing this by pointing out why what they're doing is wrong--because they AREN'T wrong; at least in the context of the culture that's been established. Your job is to create a positive image for yourself that your peers want to model. This means not only being a strong musician, but also being a really cool person to talk to, who doesn't complain that "the band sucks", being helpful and encouraging, and most of all doing all of this selflessly....not because you expect results. Basically just try to enjoy yourself and enjoy making music, and hopefully your peers will want to do the same. Very difficult to do if you are already having a bad experience with this band...but that's what needs to happen in order for you to achieve the best result.

Georgetown East View is also 4A as well. This year they were 3A Non-Varsity with I believe grades 9-10. Also...Cedar Ridge 5A already? Wow, Round Rock is growing fast! And with Leander moving down to 4A that means all 5 Leander ISD schools are 4A now if I'm not mistaken. Mansfield Legacy moving down to 4A again is also notable, since they've been pretty strong even as a 5A program.

This was a fun year for predictions, both from the logistical side (went mostly pretty smoothly) and as a player (the new rules format is a hit). Congratulations to all the winners!

I think the small school directors would agree with you, especially the many "one-man-shows" in small towns where you have 1 (ONE!) director teaching ALL music band or otherwise, K-12...my heart goes out to them...But I think you answered your own question; if you have the money then why not use it? Or....if you have the power...then more power to you.

But of course the drawback to using ordinals instead of raw scores is that the true ability gaps between the bands are lost. A band could get unanimous 1st place scores from all judges creating a massive point total gap between 1st and 2nd place while in reality the 1st place band was only a tiny bit better than the 2nd place band, but all the judges agreed they were the best. A band that only has a slight advantage in music over the other bands but falls far behind them in marching could still place very high under this system. There are algorithms that could be introduced into the judges' scores that could reign-in and flatten out the spreads of those wild judges in caption-style judging formats, but I don't see that happening because that would seem to imply the contest doesn't trust the expertise of the judges they've hired.

Truth. Pape is amazing. He led marching rehearsal one time my sophomore or junior year when he was still at Georgetown and his pace and teaching style was WAY more intense than what we were all used to with the rest of the staff. It's no wonder he was able to turn the kind of skill level that we've seen from the drumlines at pretty much every school he's been at. I imagine he'll be at Vandegrift for quite awhile and he'll be able to take that drumline to their limits and beyond. We should see great things from them in the future.

Nothing I saw from Marcus at BOA Conroe made me think they were in a decline....That was made apparent when they won out against stiff competition at that contest. I wasn't at the Alamodome and didn't watch the webcast, so I didn't get to see their show. It's possible they just didn't have their best run that night. What I think is even more likely is that Bowie has finally ascended to become a dynasty now like Bell and Marcus (they've been reaching for this level for the past couple of years now), and the Woodlands is finally finishing the climb back to their former dynastic glory after losing Brett Johnson. I'm not one of those people who believes that marching bands are getting "better" over time or "evolving" (frankly I think the best bands of today are at about the same talent/capability/skill as they were 20 years ago).....I just think Marcus's placing 4th has more to do with the Woodlands and Bowie stepping it up....this is apparent from Bowie's victory over Bell early in the season. And Bell.....well, Bell is Bell and will continue to be Bell for a long time apparently .

I think you'd have to define "non-musical" first, before you could begin to enforce that rule. I mean some schools use as many as 60 dancers or colorguard members that don't play a single note. Some shows have kids that play for half the show and have some other job for the rest of the show.....it would be a tough rule to enforce. I think every student that performs in a show has an important role to fill, no matter how small. Some schools that use lots of mobile props (props that are moved around the field extensively) often get their own "section names". The "Trees section" is a classic example.....I think that was a past Marcus show that used that one, but it could've been another school, I can't remember. Sure. They also have the option of using junior high/middle school student in their show, regardless of whether or not they're in band. LD Bell had 2 junior high students who played a very central part of their 2007 BOA Grand National champion show: 'Transcendents'. Many small UIL 1A HS bands are heavily composed of 7th and 8th grade band students.....they need them, otherwise they wouldn't have enough kids to cover all the parts. I personally think it would be awesome for a marching band to use a 200-piece symphonic choir (all decked out in formal black on risers with a full 10-12 mic array). I think that would sound glorious!

Aaand concerning the field conductors - 2.01 All aspects of the Performance must be performed by Students. No adult activity during the Performance may contribute directly to the musical or visual program. 2.02 Adults must be clear of the Performance Field for the duration of the Performance. (Note: This includes backfield and the backfield seating areas.) This includes those assisting in setting props or equipment. 2.03 Exceptions

At times like these I usually quote Page 9, section 5.01 from the BOA Handbook that discusses this: http://legacy.musicforall.org/Resources/Do...ulebook2010.pdf 5.01 All music from traditional wind and percussion instruments, human voices or electronic instruments, must be performed by a student(s) live and in real time with the student(s) present and performing at the time of the Performance. The use of sampled sounds (

I love rereading this thread.

Lound Lock = Rock

The 3 bands you mentioned would likely regularly attend, but not every year. Texas has many bands that compete in Grand Nationals (Bell, SFA, The Woodlands, Marcus, Richland, Bowie, Churchill, Reagan, Spring, Clear Brook).....Oklahoma has a few (Broken Arrow, Owasso and Union), Georgia has a few (Kennesaw Mountain, Harrison, Collins Hill, Forsyth Central).....Most of these bands are all regular finalists as well. How many of those bands attend GN every year? Only Broken Arrow (and Bell up until this year). If you put Indiana in that same travel situation I don't see even their finalist bands attending every year with the exception of Carmel (since they budget so much for travel) and maybe Avon (though they'd have to rethink their budget a bit). I could see Avon being an "every other year" band like the Woodlands or K.Mtn with occasional 2-in-a-rows, though Avon is INSANELY competitive (like Carmel) so they might just attend every year on principle. I actually see Center Grove and Lawrence Central attending every 3 or 4 years (like Richland, Bowie, SFA or Churchill). So in a typical sequence of GNs held in Texas: 2012 might have Carmel, Avon and Castle attending (2 finalists). 2013 might have Carmel, Penn and Lawrence Central (1 finalist, maybe 2), 2014 might just be Carmel and Avon (2 finalists), 2015 would be Carmel, Avon, Center Grove and Ben Davis (2 finalists, maybe 3 if it's a good year) 2016 may see Castle come back with Carmel, Lake Central and Lawrence Central making another appearance (1 maybe 2 finalists) 2017 Carmel, Avon and some other random Indiana band that managed to field the money (think Hidalgo) (2 finalists) One thing's for sure.....Texas would have the monopoly on finalist bands, mainly because there'd be so many more Texas bands competing and Indiana would only be able to send a handful of who they have, much like Texas does now.

Well.....they got 6th in 2002. Of course that was their first year in 5A .

Having it a 2-day contest is an inconvenience for the Friday bands.....I will give you that. The idea of "watching and celebrating" of course comes secondary to the fact it's a competition. I think most bands would prefer it to be a 1-day contest purely because of financial reasons. I mean most bands invest in this as a 2-day event because of the possibility that they will have to come in on Friday.....if you only budget for Saturday and you're given a Friday slot, you won't have the money to attend the contest. I do believe that if the contest only required you to be there 1 day, most bands would budget for it as a 1-day educational event, despite the contest/festival/event being 2 days in length. The 2-day event thing is a necessary evil, and the whole idea of it being a 2-day festival and celebration is something I would bet even MFA would admit is a way of looking at it so that they'll have a way of funding the event without losing too much money. I don't think the Finals audience would be as grand if many of the bands had learned they hadn't advanced during the previous day. Because of this, I don't think the event would be as "splendid" and energetic. I think there are a lot of people out there that would love to be able to fly out to Grand National Finals (myself included), but don't just because of the money involved. But since many of these bands are pretty much required to be there anyway, you now have an audience of 20,000 people to play to, and they're all glad to be there, regardless of the fact that they probably wouldn't be if given the financial opportunity. It's an interesting paradox (or whatever the word for it is). I think there are a lot of bands that also "wouldn't mind" coming in on Friday to "celebrate" and watch bands.....except the merits of this don't warrant skipping school and spending a whole bunch of extra money on the trip if needn't be. I will concede that while although a 2-day festival and celebration this is, and one must look at it this way to justify its cost..... it is first and foremost a competition. If it were not, then most people wouldn't bother (I think if the NFL didn't declare winners at football games, no one would show up to those games, despite how much of an experience and cultural moor attending a football game is and how enjoyable it is to view the spectacle). That said, only by seeing it as a 2-day event that you might only have to show up for 1 day of can you justify its cost. And it's certainly justifiable when viewed as such, even if you end up having to be there both days. I'm not even going to bother. It would take forever and I don't think we would get anywhere. I will say that a Super Regional is still a contest that has some of the characteristics of a "national festival" like GN, just on a much less grand scale. Not many....but I don't see that as ample reason to prerelease the scores, changing the experience of the contest. Basically yes. The fact that being able to attend the event is such a monumental undertaking and expensive is part of what makes the contest so exclusive and so magical. I mean the competition dues for every BOA event are $800; way more than just about any contest out there ($300-$500 is more typical of even the grandest invitationals)....that by itself speaks volumes that they're not trying to make it available to every podunkville in America. It's the same thing. The forums would start a thread "So who didn't advance to finals", and people would be chiming in based on what they'd heard, so the general public would end up knowing who most of them are anyway. Contacting 15 bands just in itself still means that thousands of people are going to be aware of at least a fragment of the results (the directors, the kids and parents of each particular band) before the full list is released. Having this set up will make the finals crowd smaller and diminish the general experience of the event (especially Finals, which is the end-all goal for everybody), and the incredible experience and reputation of the event is the reason why so many bands want to do these contests in the first place. And yes, I do believe that reserving the dome for 2 or more days adds in a financial commitment that requires as many people as possible to be buying tickets for both days. And I understand why this is a more reasonable argument than the one that I'm proposing. And I totally get where you're coming from. I really do....there are many bands out there that just don't have the financial capability to put together the kind of show to be competitive as well as field the additional money to travel there, eat and reside there for the extensive length of time required by the event, and the setup of the event makes it even harder for these bands. However, I don't think MFA has a responsibility to make it more accessible to them.....

If Sundown had a wizard who could make $100,000 appear out of thin air for their band program, could they do better at contest? Oh certainly. Do I think it would allow them to make finals at DMI? No. I can name bands that have annual band booster budgets of $300,000-$400,000 that have placed near the bottom of prelims at BOA San Antonio and I can name just as many bands that have made finals with booster budgets of less than $100,000. When a kid spends an entire summer mowing lawns to help pay a portion of his/her Fair Share band fees in communities that don't have super rich parents to pay for everything, there's a certain level of ownership and pride that is gained from that experience. Band Booster programs for these high-budget bands have dozens of parents (many have upwards of 50), they're aware of the huge amount of money that needs to be raised to pay for all their instructors, designers and props. When the band community "bands together" for this financial cause, there is a powerful sense of pride that comes from this. If band A spends 8 hours a week outside in rehearsal and Band B spends 8 hours a week outside in rehearsal, it doesn't mean both bands work equally as hard outside in rehearsal. If Band A works at a grueling pace with less water breaks and masters 30 sets of drill in 1 week, and Band B drags their feet in rehearsal, doesn't care and spends all of their time wishing they were somewhere else and only masters 5 sets of drill, then Band B worked much LESS than Band A, despite devoting the same amount of time to the task. You seem to think everyone works the same and competition victories are separated by intrinsic characteristics like wealth, luck, judge bias and other uncontrollable factors. This is so far from the truth it hurts.... Why do you think they would be willing? Why should they? And what precedent do you have to believe this would actually help the inner-city band improve? Title I is an interesting thing. I've walked through shiny, sparkling brand new schools in slum areas paid for by Title I money taken from larger more successful districts. The school has a budget to match many wealthier schools in the area, the teachers have higher salaries than practically anywhere else but their test scores are still low. Money was never the issue. Do you know how many bands with props DIDN'T make finals? How'd Berkner, Rowlett, Keller, Coppell and Klein Oak manage to make finals without all those props? I mean the judges only think bands with props can do well right? You have bands in finals with props and those without....you have bands in outside of finals with props and those without. And if you say "Well, the band that WON had props so therefore I'm right", I could name for you several contests where the band that won had little to no props, including BOA National and UIL state champions that didn't have props. You might as well flip a coin with props or no props, because the ratio of bands that win with props vs. bands that win without them is about the same as the number of bands that use props in general vs. those that don't. Do you really think judges are dumb enough to go "Ohhhhhh, look at those pretty ferris wheels, we should give them a higher score because they have those". I mean can't you see how ridiculous this claim is?

1, 5 and 7 isn't really that broad for 20+ bands, especially considering the Top 7 were all extremely close in ability.

Fixed.

Yes.

I'm very interested to see how Super-Bowie will do against Tarpon Springs (FL) and Kennesaw Mountain (GA) on their own turf. My predictions (just because): 1. Tarpon Springs (FL)....4th at Nationals, that's just tough to beat. 2. James Bowie (TX)...They've got a pretty good shot at the Music Caption (see bottom of post) 3. Kennesaw Mountain (GA)...6th at Nationals last year. Though after surpassing Bell at Arlington, I think Bowie is capable of performing at the level of a 6th-ranked GN band (and beyond). 4. Wando (SC)...Lost to Bowie by 1 place at GN in '09. 5. Carlton J. Kell (GA).....Won 2 BOA Regionals last year (Jacksonville & Kettering and is coming into this event with a 2nd place finish at the Jacksonville Regional. 6. McEachern (GA).....Placed 3rd right behind Centerville (OH) at the Akron Regional this year. 7. Walton (GA) 8. Collins Hill (GA) 9. Hillgrove (GA) 10. Clear Brook (TX).....I see Clear Brook placing between 9th and 14th. Oh! And speaking of out-of-state regionals, Birdville sadly missed out on Finals at the St. Louis (MO) Super Regional the Saturday before last (they placed 15th in prelims)......but they still won the 3A music caption despite not making finals or obtaining a class medal (they placed 5th in class AAA). Birdville placing 15th overall but still winning the AAA music caption in prelims got me interested in dissecting the Music scores for the contest. Here are the class AAA bands ranked in order of class placement with their overall Music Performance score on the right (and with their overall prelims rank in parenthesis)....Notice how the music scores follow the relative placement of the bands quite beautifully until you reach Birdville, where the score suddenly spikes by an entire point and a half before returning back to the downward trickle again: 1.Rosemount, MN (6th) - 16.70 2.Bellevue West, NE (10th) - 15.85 3.Lindbergh, MO (9th) - 15.50 4.Kickapoo, MO (11th) - 15.35 5.Birdville, TX (15th) - 16.85 6.Eastview, MN (18th) - 14.95 7.Oakville, MO (21st) - 14.40 8.Collierville, TN (24th) - 14.40 9.Wentzville Holt, MO (25th) - 13.40 10.Roosevelt, SD (27th) - 13.40 11.Edmond North, OK (29th) - 13.30 12.Bartletsville, OK (34th) - 13.50 13.Lincoln-Way North, IL (35th) - 12.20 14.Westmoore, OK (37th) - 12.65 15.Edwardsville, IL (40th) - 12.95 16.Parkway South, MO (45th) - 11.45 And here are the AAA bands ranked in order of Overall Music Performance in Prelims. Check out the nearly whole 1 point gap between the top 2 bands and the 3rd place band, and notice how Rosemount still took 2nd in Music despite placing 9 places higher than Birdville and taking the other 2 captions......not bad for a band that placed 5th overall in AAA: 5.Birdville, TX (15th) - 16.85 1.Rosemount, MN (6th) - 16.70 3.Bellevue West, NE (10th) - 15.85 2.Lindbergh, MO (9th) - 15.50 4.Kickapoo, MO (11th) - 15.35 6.Eastview, MN (18th) - 14.95 7.Oakville, MO (21st) - 14.40 8.Collierville, TN (24th) - 14.40 12.Bartletsville, OK (34th) - 13.50 9.Wentzville Holt, MO (25th) - 13.40 10.Roosevelt, SD (27th) - 13.40 11.Edmond North, OK (29th) - 13.30 15.Edwardsville, IL (40th) - 12.95 14.Westmoore, OK (37th) - 12.65 13.Lincoln-Way North, IL (35th) - 12.20 16.Parkway South, MO (45th) - 11.45 Here are the top 9 scoring bands in Overall Music Performance in all of prelims: 1. Broken Arrow, OK (1st) - 17.40 2. Union, OK (2nd) - 17.30 3. Owasso, OK (3rd) - 17.30 4. William Mason, OH (4th) - 17.25 5. Blue Springs, MO (7th) - 17.15 6. Birdville, TX (15th) - 16.85 7. Rosemount, MN (6th) - 16.70 8. Marian Catholic, IL (5th) - 16.25 9. O'Fallon Township, IL (8th) - 15.95 Check out the single digit placements for all the other bands and how only 1 band (Blue Springs) separates Bville from the Top 4 placing bands in all of Prelims. This analysis is a testament to Birdville's prowess in music as well as a representative of the relatively high level of music capability that Texas Bands in general possess in contests across the country. ............... Now....I know what you might be thinking: "Oh! Well then a band like Bowie should have no problem winning the Music caption in Atlanta". Not so fast! ....If this were any other BOA Regional outside of Texas (and Avon, because they're Avon Looking forward to this contest.

Pretty consistent judging.....the only things that stick out are the judge #1 score hijacking (which means the results would've leaned slightly more towards Judge #1 if this were a score-based contest instead of ordinal-based), and also Huntsville receiving 4th/11th in Marching and the 5th/9th/11th ranking for Barbers Hill in Music. Other than that the judging was pretty consistent. Even though a sizable gap separated Dawson/Friendswood from Clear Falls & Huntsville (and also a marginal gap between Hville and CF), both schools were only 1 rank-point away from being the 3rd band to go to State. If 1 more Music judge had ranked Clear Falls 3rd or better, or if either of the Marching judges had ranked Huntsville 3rd or better, F would have sent 3 bands to State instead of 2 (much like how Galena Park got to be the 3rd band to go with Friendswood and Dawson in 2009). Also, look at the following hypothetical situation: Band M1 M2 M3 - V1 V2 Dawson 1 1 4 - 1 4 Friendswood 2 2 1 - 2 2 Clear Falls 3 4 2 - 4 1 Huntsville 4 3 3 - 3 3 Under this judging conclusion, all 4 bands would have advanced from Area F based on UIL's "Rule of Three". (pardon my crappy indents) And actually this would've happened for real if Judge 3 swapped his scores for Clear Falls and Friendswood, and Judge 4 swapped his scores for LC-Mauriceville & Huntsville.