2007 UIL State 4A Finals Results

[Mad.Hatter]

So, your opinion, who was the best band there. I personally liked Connally's performance.

 

My favorite show was Hendrickson's "heart" show - easily the most dramatic. Should have placed higher.

Top band I would say Poteet - crisp music, clean marching. Should have been #1.

Other shows I enjoyed - I like Dickinson's music, Vista Ridge's dream show, and Dripping Springs seemed to have the most fun.

[reyky]

Their show was amazing..

I'm just sooo sick and tired of triangles..

Its frustrating..

 

And quite frankly..

Annoying..

I can't stand it.

 

Why are you making such a big deal out of it? You've retold this story about 6-7 times in this one topic alone. Get over the triangles - if it's working then it works, why reinvent the wheel?

 

I don't care to call it playing it safe, I'd rather just say they're playing it smart, plus no one can contend the fact that their show was very clean and very well executed.

Edited November 9, 2007 by reyky

[Mad.Hatter]

and so everyone knows what UIL is looking for so if schools wish to go far in the UIL system then why not just concentrate on that type of show and save the "other" shows for BOA and other misc. competitions....There's something for everyone, ya just gotta know when to use it ...IMO

 

Would you really want to sit there and watch 24 bands playing it safe?

 

This is part of my point from an earlier post. UIL essentially rewards shows that are well-performed from a technical standpoint but are not all that challenging or memorable. I would hate to see 24 bands march that kind of show just to do better in UIL, but that's what will happen every year at UIL if that's what it takes to win. I've spoken off-line with someone associated with the Hendrickson band and from what they understand the judge that rated them a 9 in music essentially did so because they did not like "that type of show." It didn't matter how they performed it. That's the problem with the UIL scoring matrix.

[Mad.Hatter]

...That's the problem with the UIL scoring matrix.

 

After looking at my comment again maybe I should back myself up a bit. From what I'm hearing there are those that think Hendrickson and Friendswood (at least) got the short end of the stick on judging. But remember that these two bands went into the finals at #2 and #3, respectively. It was the switching of the judges that changed the playing field and not so much how the UIL scoring matrix is defined. It seems to me that even the judges did not go "by the book" but rather what they prefer. It's a roll of the dice on who your gonna get that day.

[iceeblue2]

But remember that these two bands went into the finals at #2 and #3, respectively. It was the switching of the judges that changed the playing field and not so much how the UIL scoring matrix is defined. It seems to me that even the judges did not go "by the book" but rather what they prefer. It's a roll of the dice on who your gonna get that day.

 

 

 

Ok, if that were true (which I completely disagree) then maybe on the flip side. instead of the "switching of prelim to finals judges" meant that maybe the prelim judges didn't "go by the book", but rather what THEY preferred.

 

We need to keep in mind AGAIN that these judges are not just picked from some ramdon hat at the local Wal-mart (no offense Wal-mart ) they are VERY competent, experienced judges and they don't quite have the emotional attachment to any of these bands as we do.

 

 

 

again, a big CONGRATS to all the State qualifiers, the 10 finalists..... and lastly CONGRATS to Poteet, Connally and Dickinson....GREAT JOB!

[Mad.Hatter]

Ok, if that were true (which I completely disagree) then maybe on the flip side. instead of the "switching of prelim to finals judges" meant that maybe the prelim judges didn't "go by the book", but rather what THEY preferred.

 

We need to keep in mind AGAIN that these judges are not just picked from some ramdon hat at the local Wal-mart (no offense Wal-mart ) they are VERY competent, experienced judges and they don't quite have the emotional attachment to any of these bands as we do.

again, a big CONGRATS to all the State qualifiers, the 10 finalists..... and lastly CONGRATS to Poteet, Connally and Dickinson....GREAT JOB!

 

 

I didn't say either group of judges - the prelim or the finals judges - was "right." My point was that from the postings here and conversations I had at the dome after the show, some people had a problem with how the contest was judged. I made a comment earlier that maybe there was a problem with the UIL scoring matrices. I changed my opinion in the comment to which you refer. The two bands I use as my example were solidly at #2 and #3 after prelims. So I can't then support my statement that there's a problem with the scoring matrices because using that same standard one group of judges went one way and a different group went a different way. I guess I didn't express myself very clear - I do that. So now I think maybe its not the UIL standards but its how the judges differ on balancing "what they are supposed to look for" versus "what they would like to see." It's apparent from the disparity in scoring that - competent as they are - even the judges struggle with keeping their bias out of their judging. I use the comment from the one judge that he doesn't care for "that type of show" as an obvious example but I'm sure there were others going either way. BTW, I have no emotional attachment to any of these bands because I didn't have a dog in this hunt.

[iceeblue2]

no matter when, where or why SOMEONE will be unhappy with the judges at one time or another....Myself included

[slw13]

I didn't say either group of judges - the prelim or the finals judges - was "right." My point was that from the postings here and conversations I had at the dome after the show, some people had a problem with how the contest was judged. I made a comment earlier that maybe there was a problem with the UIL scoring matrices. I changed my opinion in the comment to which you refer. The two bands I use as my example were solidly at #2 and #3 after prelims. So I can't then support my statement that there's a problem with the scoring matrices because using that same standard one group of judges went one way and a different group went a different way. I guess I didn't express myself very clear - I do that. So now I think maybe its not the UIL standards but its how the judges differ on balancing "what they are supposed to look for" versus "what they would like to see." It's apparent from the disparity in scoring that - competent as they are - even the judges struggle with keeping their bias out of their judging. I use the comment from the one judge that he doesn't care for "that type of show" as an obvious example but I'm sure there were others going either way. BTW, I have no emotional attachment to any of these bands because I didn't have a dog in this hunt.

 

I have put some thought into the way UIL does its judging. What I keep going back to as the closest example of a type of subjective judging where some "control" factor is used is actually in diving (of all things). If you think of what is done there, you see a panel of judges in which they throw out the high score and low score to try to remove some element of the subjectiveness involved. In that regard perhaps UIL could use 5 judges for music, 4 for marching, and then remove the high and low of each, then use the averages of those scores rather than a rankings system. Of course this assumes that UIL (who is most stubborn to change) will stay with the way that they are grading bands now (as opposed to BOA or USSBA style). The UIL really, IMHO, isn't set up to have the number of judges that BOA or USSBA does, so we are probably not going to see a change in that direction. Ultimately it might be nice to see some type of discussion within UIL of removing subjectivity from judging critique. Just remember that band isn't the only area affected by this type of judging, we also see it in drama and speech.

[Aegis Fang]

I thought Roma had the most powerful music, but I guess I could be wrong... or maybe it's because I have an addiction to Jupiter... especially with concert horns, I dunno. It sounded really cool.

[slw13]

As a parent of a DS band member, I have often told others I am a "Hendrickson Fan Magnet". LOL Seems every competition, I'd be sitting by myself and all of a sudden the Hawk fans come swooping down and I'm lost in a sea of blue. I didn't mind. I love Hendrickson fans. Everyone is so friendly. (I'm also close friends with a HHS Varsity football parent) I was actually really sad to see HHS drop to 5th. I was rooting for y'all to take it all! I didn't get to see your show at state, but I'd seen it enough throughout the season to know we could expect great things from y'all. (Except...those color guard uniforms??? umm...LOL)

 

I think it's easy to forget what an honor it is to advance to State at all. Everyone gets so caught up in the competition and doing their best. But the top 24 bands in the state make up something like 8% of the entire state, so looking at it that way makes one realize exactly how "big" it is to be in San Antonio at all. I hope all the bands look at it that way. I am sorely going to miss all this. My band kid graduates in June and my others are not interested in band. :-/

DS, you have one of the classiest programs anywhere. Truly some of the friendliest people you will find anywhere (and cook a wonderful catfish dinner at home football games, a great place to visit). Your guard is phenomenal (anyone wishing to see excellence in performance should try to catch the Dripping Springs Winterguard group during their competition season). Hard to argue with you on the color guard uniforms of ours, some of us even cringed when we saw them for the first time! Sorry that you will not be a part of the band community anymore, but feel free to visit HHS anytime, you are always welcome.

[borchnork]

Love Enigma Variations.

 

and I also liked their uniforms... random bit of info, but I really did. lol.

[capncrunk]

I thought Roma had the most powerful music, but I guess I could be wrong... or maybe it's because I have an addiction to Jupiter... especially with concert horns, I dunno. It sounded really cool.

 

Roma was my favorite hands down. I loved their show..

[Xenon]

[Lots of Stuff]

You also have to remember that placements didn't just change because the judging panel had different preferences; Finals performances were of different qualities compared to prelims performances too.

 

In regards to throwing out high-low judges, I have come up with a better way to do it which mathematically selects the judge that is the most off from the others and throws that score out. This is a more mathematically correct method of protection and also only requires UIL to move to 4 Music and 3 Marching for a total of 7 judges which is probably the maximum that can be realisticly be obtained. I am currently attempting to push this idea through certain channels, but rules changes (in any circuit) are a long road to walk down.

[Xenon]

I thought Roma had the most powerful music, but I guess I could be wrong... or maybe it's because I have an addiction to Jupiter... especially with concert horns, I dunno. It sounded really cool.

I really love Roma and their Concert French Horns too; and they picked awesome music that really displays them!

 

The big problem with Roma, though, was the high brass. I'm pretty sure that is one of the things that held them back.

[the ridge emily]

Would you really want to sit there and watch 24 bands playing it safe?

 

This is part of my point from an earlier post. UIL essentially rewards shows that are well-performed from a technical standpoint but are not all that challenging or memorable. I would hate to see 24 bands march that kind of show just to do better in UIL, but that's what will happen every year at UIL if that's what it takes to win. I've spoken off-line with someone associated with the Hendrickson band and from what they understand the judge that rated them a 9 in music essentially did so because they did not like "that type of show." It didn't matter how they performed it. That's the problem with the UIL scoring matrix.

 

haha thats so true...no offense to any of the finalist bands but they for the most part were forgettable...except the darn triangles in poteets show..and the cat that ran across the alamodome during one of the performances...they were executed at a very high level i just believe these judges had a bias against entertaining shows!!lol not really but it seemed like it!!

[DrumMajorly09]

haha thats so true...no offense to any of the finalist bands but they for the most part were forgettable...except the darn triangles in poteets show..and the cat that ran across the alamodome during one of the performances...they were executed at a very high level i just believe these judges had a bias against entertaining shows!!lol not really but it seemed like it!!

 

Ah, I wouldn't call the finalist bands forgettable by any means. Each band brought a lot of really exciting, really strong music to the table, and the drills were for the most part interesting. They just didn't have a lot of the innovation like you'd expect to see at BOA, but that's not what UIL is about. Like you said, each band performed at a very high level, and that's what the judges were there to judge.

 

I do wish I could have seen the Raven though...I heard it was a pretty cool show.

[the ridge emily]

Ah, I wouldn't call the finalist bands forgettable by any means. Each band brought a lot of really exciting, really strong music to the table, and the drills were for the most part interesting. They just didn't have a lot of the innovation like you'd expect to see at BOA, but that's not what UIL is about. Like you said, each band performed at a very high level, and that's what the judges were there to judge.

 

I do wish I could have seen the Raven though...I heard it was a pretty cool show.

 

 

thanks yeah we loved performing the show and we personally feel we executed our show at a high enough level for finals but i guess not!!haha it sucks but i guess 12th aint bad !!!

[Donezo]

12th at state is a pretty big accomplishment. You guys should be proud!

[DrumMajorly09]

Oh wow....come to think of it, I DID see part of Fossil Ridge's show, because we used the practice field, Alamo Stadium, right before you guys that morning, and some of us stuck around to watch a little of your rehearsal. What I saw was very impressive and even though I'm no expert, it looked like finals material to me. Congratulations on 12th though, that's definitely something to be proud of.

[the ridge emily]

Oh wow....come to think of it, I DID see part of Fossil Ridge's show, because we used the practice field, Alamo Stadium, right before you guys that morning, and some of us stuck around to watch a little of your rehearsal. What I saw was very impressive and even though I'm no expert, it looked like finals material to me. Congratulations on 12th though, that's definitely something to be proud of.

 

dang i wish i could have saw ya'lls ive heard nothing but good!!! and congrats on doing so well at state!!

[slw13]

You also have to remember that placements didn't just change because the judging panel had different preferences; Finals performances were of different qualities compared to prelims performances too.

 

In regards to throwing out high-low judges, I have come up with a better way to do it which mathematically selects the judge that is the most off from the others and throws that score out. This is a more mathematically correct method of protection and also only requires UIL to move to 4 Music and 3 Marching for a total of 7 judges which is probably the maximum that can be realisticly be obtained. I am currently attempting to push this idea through certain channels, but rules changes (in any circuit) are a long road to walk down.

 

I would be interested in hearing more about your idea. Another thought of mine was if the variance between judges was more than a certain percentage that perhaps some alteration might be in order, not necessarily throwing a score out. I don't know if that is what you are thinking of or not. Having up to 7 judges might be difficult at the Area level, and the same judging methodology exists there as in state.

[Mister Mims]

I think Poteet had an amazing season and deserved to win. . . .even though I didn't want them to

 

:]]

[borchnork]

hahaha, I like that statement.

 

I also must say, the cat running back field was very entertaining. Sorry Dripping Springs if the crowd's obsession with the cat kinda threw off your finals performance...

[silentwatch]

I also must say, the cat running back field was very entertaining. Sorry Dripping Springs if the crowd's obsession with the cat kinda threw off your finals performance...

Was the cat running across the field during DS performance? I didn't realize that. I heard that there was a cat during one of the performances, but didn't know during who's performance. If it was during DS, how fitting! LOL I mean there WERE cats along the river during Huck Finn's time. LOL

I honestly don't think the cat threw off the performance...it was something much, much different, IMO.

[silentwatch]

You also have to remember that placements didn't just change because the judging panel had different preferences; Finals performances were of different qualities compared to prelims performances too.

 

In regards to throwing out high-low judges, I have come up with a better way to do it which mathematically selects the judge that is the most off from the others and throws that score out. This is a more mathematically correct method of protection and also only requires UIL to move to 4 Music and 3 Marching for a total of 7 judges which is probably the maximum that can be realisticly be obtained. I am currently attempting to push this idea through certain channels, but rules changes (in any circuit) are a long road to walk down.

I like the idea of throwing off 1-2 scores. I think, like in figure skating (which I mentioned before), it would be a more accurate evaluation of any band. However, to throw off one score out of 7 judges would create possible multiple ties. I'm assuming you're saying you throw out the score most off in each Music and Marching (thus ending up with 5 rankings counted out of 7). So, supposing someone got 5, 5, 4, 6 in Music and 5, 4, 6 in marching...how would you "throw off" a score from that?