1998-2018

Reaching agreement regarding how to change the rubric has been an insurmountable task so far. Comparing pre and post change results is largely irrelevant because it only happens over beers and margaritas.

Raw scores are converted. A competent judges knows how he ranked the bands. Well, at least the bands he intends to advance to Finals and the bubble bands. How many more they could list in order, from memory, will depend on the size of the contest. Also different organizations/competitions collect scoresheets at different times. (After each band, after the block, et cetera.) This can either help or hinder the ranking of bands.

I've been away from TxBands for a couple days and had some catching up to do. I'm going to skip the quote process tonight and just share a few thoughts directly about what I just read. Some of it may repeat earlier comments to bring them back to the forefront because this monster conversation has been wondering and wagging its tail all through the weeds. First, Mr. Move on, move on, move on... Just because this has happened before doesn't mean it has to happen again. If you're not contributing in a positive way or enjoying this difficult topic, maybe you would be happier if you just take your own advice and move on to another topic. Some of us are trying to explore possible solutions. Others are working through their grief and frustration. Your contributions are often helpful but you missed the mark this time. The same to others of a similar ilk. Second, this is not about Round Rock or just this year. The Round Rock parents seem to understand they are just the latest example of a bigger issue. That point seems to be lost on some of you. Others are discouragingly indifferent. Currently there is no "bad judge rule". That derogatory slang is part of what is confusing this issue. Yes, we need a solution to judging deviation but the perspective that accompanies that slang won't be well received by the UIL. The rule many of you are actually referring to is called the "judges preference rule" by the UIL. It has two main components. Application of one of them correctly advanced Leander to the SMBC where they made Finals. A perfect example of why the rule exists. The other component was rather haphazardly applied at Area B Finals due to the unclear way it was written. It was initially applied in a way that seemed consistent with the intent but was reversed the next day because making the rule scaleable was not expressly directed. Neither Keller or Waxahachie, the two bands involved, seemed overly concerned as both bands were advancing either way. It has be reported that UIL is reviewing and clarify whether or not application of the rule is scalable to include Area results. Understanding the rule and its intent would be helpful for those interested in how UIL currently deals with judging deviation. Saying UIL doesn't care is both inaccurate and unfair. It also reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what and who the UIL is. Saying Directors who just advanced to the 6A SMBC Finals don't care is also wildly inaccurate. These are the Directors most likely to support change. They have all felt the sting of judging deviation many times. It would help if people stopped using the term UIL without understanding it and how rules get changed. For example when you blame "The Government" you are really blaming "We The People". That's who the government is in this country. If you don't like what's happening, get involved and vote. Similarly, when you blame "The UIL" you are really talking about "We The Directors" and how they vote. All the Directors in Texas have an opportunity to fix this in the spring. Some are very concerned about this and other big picture issues. Others could be described as indifferent. A third group is openly hostile to change of any kind. That's why I explained in an earlier post how important it is to know where your Director stands and what they are doing to either influence or impede change. And yes, there is a decoder ring. But even if you have access to one it takes forever to learn how to use it correctly.

Of course, but you still seem to be missing the point. We did, four times each within five days. Maybe you noticed BOA and UIL rewarded them quite differently. That's the first part of my point. Would Carmel and Avon be achieving what they do if they were influenced by the UIL? Or is it significant that they, along with Blue Springs, Broken Arrow, Tarpon Springs and other consistent top programs exist outside Texas. The HornRank Top 30 is clearly dominated by Texas bands so we are doing something correctly. On the other hand, when we get to the end of the year it is rarely a Texas band in the Top spot. That is significant too, both statistically and otherwise. Don't you wonder why and want to know what we, and UIL, could be doing better? Now we come to the second part of my point. BOA rewards Directors for pushing kids to play and march more difficult music and drill at a high level of execution while UIL rewards flawless execution of less complex music and drill. So who is really supporting and advancing the Music and Marching Arts in Texas versus potentially stifling them? Where are these two different reward systems, with their different and conflicting priorities, leading our band programs in the long run?

How is it insulting? I said I loved the Vista Ridge show. Do you think BOA insulted them too?

We should also keep in mind that a low outlier might be accompanied by a high outlier from the same judge. Or a high outlier can also happen across different judges just like the lows people tend to notice more often. Both ends of the spectrum need to be actively monitored.

Reviewing ordinal scores/placements should be triggered by a percentage deviation. An ordinal point swing from 1 to 10 as happened at Area B or 1 to 9 at another Area is much more statistically significant than a swing from 74 to 84 or 100 to 110 as could theoretically happen at BOA SA or Indy Grand Nationals. Percentage statistics are almost always more informative, revealing, and helpful than counting statistics.

I have no doubt Hebron can play and march the Vista Ridge show at or above the level VR did. Do you believe Vista Ridge can play and march the Hebron show at or above the level Hebron did? BOA results seem to agree with me while UIL doesn't seem to care. (Please remember I already said I loved the VR show and their improvement from last year may be unprecedented at this level. I'm just talking about the difference in Judging Criteria.)

But somehow there are still plenty of people on here who have made it clear they like UIL the way it is and nothing needs to be fixed or changed. I'm just thankful my daughter is moving on to Winter Gaurd and then DCI.

I've previously tried to discuss this politely with you and repeatedly asked you to stay on topic and to stop trying to undermine the discussion with logical fallacies and misdirection. We all understand your concerns about the small schools because we are actually paying attention to what is being said. Clearly you are not. You are symbolic of the fearful, misinformed, closed-minded Directors who are preventing progress and would have UIL disappear into irrelevant obscurity. I will give you credit that you often provide interesting information and personal stories but it's also often completely irrelevant to the topic of discussion and therefore meaningless and unhelpful. I'm going to try again and I'm going to be direct this time because you still aren't paying attention. (Sorry, Dan, I've tried very hard.) STOP TALKING ABOUT BOA. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT UIL! Got it? Okay, let's try again and keep in mind most of us like having some difference between UIL and BOA. Understanding that alone should help you better understand and participate meaningfully in this group discussion. Most of us don't want to turn UIL into BOA and most of the 5A and 6A Directors don't want too either. What would be the point of having two identical contests separated by a single day? People are primarily upset about scoring deviation and therefore the credibility of UIL advancements from Area to the SMBC, by extension advancement to SMBC Finals, and ultimately Finals placements. They are not asking for UIL to immediately convert to BOA Judging Criteria. Please stop acting like they are. It seems most people aren't even upset about who made Finals at the SMBC. The issue for most is how someone was excluded, not that they were excluded. (Some Area competitions were more complicated.) In either case, we need consistency within UIL, not with BOA, in order to have credibility and that requires clarity. Period. This can not be delayed further if the UIL circuit is to remain vibrant and relevant. And...it can be done without addressing major changes that include more abstract concepts like General Effect. Clarity. That's the immediate priority. You think I'm wrong about the urgency of the situation? Bands are already choosing to skip the SMBC. I've also witnessed more than one conversation before Area and the SMBC where the topic was whether it is more prestigious to win the UIL Texas State Championship or BOA San Antonio Super Regional. The answer is not clear yet but the trend in the conversation is. Credibility matters. So does difficulty and innovation. Another day or in another thread we can debate how to modernize UIL Judging Criteria because the choice between relevance and obscurity is coming quickly. If the current trends continue, as you support them, in your lifetime the only bands left at UIL may be very small and marching basic military drill while playing Pop Goes The Weasel because they couldn't take the risk of playing a Sousa March as originally composed. That would leave them open to someone making a mistake when the Judging Criteria already has a strong bias toward flawless execution of the simple instead of excellent execution of the difficult. Good luck with that. Some have also said DCI is "exerting pressure" on other marching circuits to "convert" but that completely misreads the situation. Kids love DCI. That's called influence and if you want kids to stay involved, you better pay attention. Instead let's stick with the current issue and your objections. You keep talking about how many small schools there are and how they outnumber the large schools. I'm going to ask you to be logically consistent and look at the other side of the coin. Have you ever considered how the total number of band kids at the large schools compare to the combined total of band kids at all the small schools? You claim to represent a majority but it's all in the way you choose to define it. In addition the underdog you want to protect isn't even participating under the system you claim protects them. The 2A SMBC had 17 bands. Not Finalist, 17 total competing bands. How many kids is that? How does it compare to the level of involvement, by either number of schools or students, in the 6A SMBC? That doesn't even count 4A. You want to include 4A among your small schools? Why? It seems disingenuous considering there are six classifications in Texas and I would divide them in half, but go ahead. It doesn't really dilute my point. You also consistently argue that it's not fair for small schools to have to compete against the large schools. Are you kidding me?!? Are you still confusing BOA and UIL? We're talking about UIL and I didn't see a single 2A Marching Band among the 41 competitors at the 6A SMBC. Additionally, while I did see some other 6A parents at the 2A SMBC, none of the 6A Marching Bands took the field. So please stop spouting this fallacious nonsense. At best, your concern is based on misunderstanding, or perhaps delusion, but different school size classifications don't compete against each other under UIL Judging Criteria. Nobody is suggesting that should change. Next is money. You're always going on about money so let's address it again. I'll start with a big school first. Did Vista Ridge win some kind of Fine Arts lottery that accounts for their amazing improvement in one year? No. But they did go in a new direction with basically the same money and most of the same kids. (Hint: That's a dog whistle for new Director. The right Directors and staff, starting at the Intermediate School level are the first step in cracking the code to the eternal question, "Why is it always the same Bands?" We'll find out soon enough if this one knows the whole code but his actions this year indicate he may.) "But it's different at a 1A school", you keep insisting. It sure is. In fact, it's so different they really can't afford to spend a dime on a real marching program. Music education is important, so focus on your concert program and let them play in the stands at football games. Sounds extreme but I went to an isolated medium-sized California school that did that and it works well. Consider the financial reality at 1A. That's a school with about 100 students, probably less. If you want a class size of 20 students you can staff a big 1A school with 5 teachers. Now think of just the classes required for graduation in Texas. How do you competently cover that with just 5 teachers? Next consider everything else a kid should be learning to be prepared for life and higher education in the 21st century. A 6th teacher is looking like a better investment than a marching program. Hard choices are required at the 1A level. These kids are already sentenced to a 19th century education and you think keeping the whole Texas Marching Arts program there too is going to make a difference for them?!? No, thank you. It doesn't get much better at the 2A level. Your real issues are with the Texas school finance system, not UIL Marching Competition rules. Please stop being an obstructionist here. These schools should have higher priorities than the UIL Marching Competition rules too and if the rules change they will still be in the same boat, still competing with the other small schools with the same challenges, so nobody will be at a disadvantage. Going to a small school is a mixed bag of advantages and disadvantages. Big schools are too. Don't begrudge the other schools advantages or force them to conform to the disadvantages of your school. It just makes a mess for everyone. Be fair. Figure out which one best fits the values of your family and then enjoy your choice. And remember, you can always change your mind and move if you're ready to shoulder the burden of the new disadvantages too. (Yes, this time I'm speaking to the larger audience still raising kids. Or even more importantly, any lurking Directors.) Is anyone still with me? I'm sorry that this probably wasn't my finest hour and hopefully this is viewed as more informative, thought provoking, and persuasive, than angry rant. That was my intention.

The Vista Ridge faithful clearly made more noise than is typical during their band's performance. They seemed to be oblivious to traditional etiquette and I saw numerous complaints and requests to sit down during the performance. The rest of the crowd gave them a thunderous, and we'll deserved, standing ovation when the show ended. In my view it was primarily their parents who were on their feet early.

On a positive note regarding UIL Judging, I now have a new favorite judging comment. During Keller's Prelim run one of the Judges said, "I was enjoying your Color Guard so much that for a minute there I actually forgot I was judging this contest!" That's high praise if you ask me. When my daughter told me the Directors had shared it with them she was practically glowing and said, "That's pretty cool for a contest where Color Guard doesn't even count." It made her day.

There has been a great deal of concern expressed about UIL scoring, accountability, and whether or not UIL leadership is also concerned or even interested. I know the head of UIL Judging and I can assure you they are extremely concerned. However, UIL is not a dictatorship. When it comes to changing rules, it's more like a democracy. In fact you could argue it even has similarities to an electoral college. In the spring a presentation will be made to all the Directors regarding proposed changes. The significant opposition to change is coming from Directors, not leadership. The presentation will not be everything UIL leadership wants. It will represent a compromise they hope will pass. A Director from a small school with a handful of kids in their band program that never achieves a Division I rating at the Region level will have the same vote as the Director of Allen High School, representing over 700 band kids, or the Directors of the SMBC Finalist. Maybe that's fair or maybe not. Either way that's how it works. Blaming "UIL" for this is a bit too nonspecific. This issue is squarely in the hands of the Directors. They need to stop complaining and start influencing! Do you know if your Director plans to vote for change? What have they done to persuade others, particularly at small schools, to also support change? Have they told Directors who are resistant to change the stories of bands negatively affected by judging deviations? Have they listened to the concerns of those small school Directors and helped them overcome misunderstandings regarding how change will affect them? Have they mentored those Directors through the changes that will affect them? You want accountability? It start with Directors. I have a question for all of you. What is your Director doing about this?

The biggest week in Texas Marching Arts has ended with the same answer we always get to this question. The Finalist are the same but the placements tell the usual story. BOA expects a high level of execution. They also reward difficulty and innovation moving the Marching Arts forward. UIL expects flawless execution at the expense of difficulty and innovation. Don't attempt anything that challenges your band to the point that it might even slightly compromise execution. Please put away the pitchforks and torches. I loved all the Finalist. This is not a disparaging remark about any band or bands. My comment is about the Judging Criteria at BOA and UIL. I simply answered the original question based on the final placements of the same bands at both contests because the results illiterate and reinforce a long-term trend highlighting the difference between BOA and UIL.

Probably the best idea, and easiest to implement, to come out of the 6A State conversation/thread is to use a 9 Judge panel split into 5 Music Judges and 4 Marching Judges. Then eliminate the high and low from both categories leaving the original 3/2 format and 60%/40% music emphasis. The additional cost should be easy to cover with a small increase in spectator ticket price and/or entrance fee paid by competing bands. UIL ticket prices a much lower than other circuits. At first glance this solution appears to require many more qualified Judges. However, some have said the large deviations in scores/rankings are only an issue in the large school classifications. If this is supported by emperical evidence, rather than anecdotal, then the additional Judges/cost may only be necessary in those classifications. It also seems unlikely to be needed at the region level as Division I versus Division II ratings don't seem to be generating meaningful controversy. If the 9 Judge panel was limited to 5A and 6A Area competitions and the entire SMBC, regardless of classification, the cost and demand for additional Judges should be manageable. That would leave better instructions/guidelines regarding Judging criteria. Once again this does not need to descend into war over the differences between UIL and BOA or DCI. At this point UIL would be well served by at least clarifying what it means or wants under the current criteria even if it didn't make additional, and long overdue, changes to modernize the existing criteria. Start by clearly explaining them. No consensus in current Judging or meaningful debate regarding the future of Marching Arts in Texas can happen without universal understanding of where we are now.

We made it home a couple hours ago. Now it's after one o'clock in the morning and we're with a large group of parents waiting for the kids buses to arrive. Of course it's raining. A perfect ending for this crazy season. Could anything make it better? Yep, Timber Creek Band kids and parents are here too!

That was just the sixth full run for Keller. It has been a challenging year with all the rain and such a complex design so it's nice to see their last run for the show was finally the trouble free run we all knew they had in them. We will remain very involved behind the scenes and in the stands but that was a satisfying way for our family to close out their participation on the field. 21 seasons from our oldest's Freshman year to our youngest's Senior year have come to an end. Thank you Keller, it has been an honor to be a part of this program.

Philadelphia Morning is the perfect close for Waxahachie. It's been a joy to watch their journey from entering the conversation with Bohemian Rhapsody a few years ago to 6A SMBC Finals.

Wouldn't we all willingly pay a few more dollars to get into UIL events if it meant we never had to have this discussion again?

A report via FB from the Keller Band. Heard in the final trumpet section meeting just now from one of the Seniors to the Junior trumpets: "Be the Seniors that you wanted to have as Freshman." The changing of the guard is underway.

We have seen the kids from Ronald Reagan and Claudia Taylor Johnson seriously celebrate each other's success. CTJ is also a spin off like Timber Creek. Flower Mound, Hebron, and Marcus all show similar support for each other. Frankly, Flower Mound parents are the gold standard when it comes to appreciation of every other program so that helps explain where their kids get it. At BOA Grand Nationals and WGI World Championships the #TeamTexas support for all competing groups is significant. It's common to hear the line, "Deep in the heart of Texas", sung and followed by the traditional claps whenever another Texas group enters for competition.

Show design certainly plays a role but don't overlook variations in the quality of four different runs made by each band. That can make a huge difference too.

Any disputes with Dan can be settled quickly with a bag of warm Tender Rolls.

How did this descend into the endless BOA versus UIL debate once again? The question was about UIL judging. To rephrase it a bit more politely, "Can, and should, UIL Judging be improved?" This is not a complicated question. The answer is painfully obvious to even the casual observer. YES! What needs to improve isn't all that difficult to identify either. Begin with the end in mind and then start addressing the basic root causes. The current judging guidelines are far to vague and the selection of who can be a judge, and at what level, is not nearly strict enough. BOA and DCI have nothing to do with this. (It shouldn't be a surprise that someone with an engineering background understands and identified this earlier in the thread.) Everyone is unhappy about inconsistent scores/rankings. Fix it! Marching styles, school sizes, budgets, et cetera, are all distant secondary issues. It's true they are much more complicated and contentious issues but the biggest reason for that is people are continuing to defend preferences and turf with arguments fueled by confirmation bias. Correlation is not causation. The head of UIL Judging is trying to address these issues too by having a healthy, honest, and compassionate discussion dealing in reality and empirical evidence. Not emotion. We should do the same. But put first things first. Improve consistency (consensus) and reduce deviation. Do that and even Freshman parents who know they don't have a clue about how judging works will feel confident that at least the judges do.

Don't count on it. The guys clearly enjoy watching UIL competitions but in the past have just as clearly stated their concerns regarding the variation in judging. HornRank's Top 30 and Next Ten is openly about BOA. My understanding is the algorithm either almost or completely ignores UIL, and similar state or regional organizations. However, individual contributors do go to those competitions to stay current as the season progresses, making their own judgements regarding how the bands are improving and how they would fair under BOA standards. These judgements can be reflected in the raw data they submit to the algorithm. So while it is possible, the affect of Area or State would be indirect and very likely limited.