ch1k3n123 Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 I'm more than a bit surprised that Round Rock didn't make finals. Based on what I've seen and heard, they seemed destined to land near the top. But if you look at the rankings, only 2 judges had them in finals. Was it because they went so early, and the judges simply forgot about them? Did the cold weather create tone quality and/or intonation issues we haven't heard from them before? In any case, I'm still quite confident about their chances at BOA SA. (The same goes for Flower Mound.) Well someone made the point earlier that going first does have the opportunity of setting a standard, and a quality band like Round Rock definitely would have set a great standard, but with a contest of 34 bands, it's quite difficult to stay in the judge's minds unless the show was absolutely phenomenal, which would have been quite difficult given the temperature conditions. In the cold, winds tend to go flat. Vibes tend to go sharp. Vibes are untuneable, and bassoons go pretty out of whack in the cold as well. Generally tuning issues abounded, but overall the band worked hard to keep in tune. The outcome was certainly a well in tune performance given the conditions, but nowhere near perfect, which would also mean nowhere near having an impression lasting the day of 34 bands which included the likes of Bowie and CTJ, especially when those bands perform in the afternoon. Some kids had the best show of their lives, one saying while he was marching and saw his shadow in front of him, he thought "dang, I look awesome!". The show was definitely the best for most kids, but still wasn't enough to be remembered by the judges and thus lost in the ocean of bands performing that day. I think it was just the luck of the draw, going first on that terribly cold day, but they played the hand they were dealt, and they accepted the results. Certainly their BOA performance will be performed with the highest level of emotional intensity ever produced from a high school band, no doubt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hard Core Band Fan Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 One man was claiming that Round Rock had beaten all the bands out there in previous competitions and yet they didn't get to move on. First of all that's not true... What? I was in no way claiming that Round Rock had beaten "all the bands out there in previous competitions". I was referring to two particular bands that they had competed with in both competitions and was not "equating" Westlake scoring to UIL scoring. I was only making the point that there was a wide discrepancy from one competition to another. That and having viewed all the bands at both competitions and many other competitions as well, that there was a sliding standard at Area D. I'm not saying anyone did anything wrong, just that they deserved to compete in the finals. Someone asked what happened and I reported what I had seen. As far as my observation, I make this with 40+ years of attending marching contests and not as a layman. I'd be making the same claim if I observed it with your band or anyone else's. This is not the first time I've seen this happen, nor do I expect this to be my last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horatio_Rastapopulous Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 I came here to say 3 things: 1. Congrats to Bowie! 2. Congrats to all the bands! 3. About the scores, nothing ever changes. Dmerk27 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centex_band_mom Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 What? I was in no way claiming that Round Rock had beaten "all the bands out there in previous competitions". I was referring to two particular bands that they had competed with in both competitions and was not "equating" Westlake scoring to UIL scoring. I was only making the point that there was a wide discrepancy from one competition to another. That and having viewed all the bands at both competitions and many other competitions as well, that there was a sliding standard at Area D. I'm not saying anyone did anything wrong, just that they deserved to compete in the finals. Someone asked what happened and I reported what I had seen. As far as my observation, I make this with 40+ years of attending marching contests and not as a layman. I'd be making the same claim if I observed it with your band or anyone else's. This is not the first time I've seen this happen, nor do I expect this to be my last. The situation I was referring to was what a gentleman or two in the concession area said after prelims, not what you said online on this forum. I am sorry for any confusion there. At the time (at the stadium), I and others were trying to be sympathetic to the Round Rock situation and give them some space but these guys were letting it all out and claiming how they had beaten all the other bands. If that was true and mattered for future competitions, why would everyone need to show up and perform again. Different competitions can have different levels of show performance (even within a band), different judging criteria and different results - these young people are human. Everyone just hopes that even when it's not their best show that it is good enough to get to the next round and show their best and sometimes it doesn't happen. I understand that different people have different ways of dealing with things and this was definitely an extremely disappointing situation for Round Rock, Anderson, Pflugerville, and others (and then Westwood, etc. in finals). I just don't agree with assuming the judges or a judge didn't know what they were talking about. Maybe they saw things that not everyone watching saw. Either way I am still sorry for the disappointments and wishing great performances for the bands going to BOA and the Area D bands at state! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takigan Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 UIL sites don't keep PDFs of Results up forever. Storing them in the TxBands Freezer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverCommittedParent Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 I just don't agree with assuming the judges or a judge didn't know what they were talking about. Maybe they saw things that not everyone watching saw. Let's just acknowledge what is ultimately going on here. UIL makes no effort to have any kind of predictable rubric or standard for juding marching contests. Different judges will have different ideas of what they want to reward in terms of music and marching. Therefore, unless a kid is in an elite band like Bowie, all they can really hope to achieve in UIL Area prelims is to be good enough to be in the pool of 15 or more very good bands from which the rest of the finalists will be chosen. Whether a band is ranked 3rd or 13th in prelims is almost meaningless in terms of any kind of real assessment, or really anything other than the fact that the 3rd ranked band got to go to finals and the 13th ranked band did not. That's just how the prelim lotto worked out on that day. If that's the system we want, then that's fine. But let's not kid outselves -- or more importantly, let's not imply to the kids -- that the "prediction" game is anything but completely pointless entertainment and that except for the elite one or two bands, the other bands can really only hope to make it into the lotto pool. Making predictions assumes some there is some degree of standard by which one can make a reasonable guess as to what it takes for a band to make finals. But there is none. The truth is that for the vast majority of bands, it's a throw of the dice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandaid1 Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Let's just acknowledge what is ultimately going on here. UIL makes no effort to have any kind of predictable rubric or standard for juding marching contests. Different judges will have different ideas of what they want to reward in terms of music and marching. Therefore, unless a kid is in an elite band like Bowie, all they can really hope to achieve in UIL Area prelims is to be good enough to be in the pool of 15 or more very good bands from which the rest of the finalists will be chosen. Whether a band is ranked 3rd or 13th in prelims is almost meaningless in terms of any kind of real assessment, or really anything other than the fact that the 3rd ranked band got to go to finals and the 13th ranked band did not. That's just how the prelim lotto worked out on that day. If that's the system we want, then that's fine. But let's not kid outselves -- or more importantly, let's not imply to the kids -- that the "prediction" game is anything but completely pointless entertainment and that except for the elite one or two bands, the other bands can really only hope to make it into the lotto pool. Making predictions assumes some there is some degree of standard by which one can make a reasonable guess as to what it takes for a band to make finals. But there is none. The truth is that for the vast majority of bands, it's a throw of the dice. Very well put. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drum major Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Let's just acknowledge what is ultimately going on here. UIL makes no effort to have any kind of predictable rubric or standard for juding marching contests. Different judges will have different ideas of what they want to reward in terms of music and marching. Therefore, unless a kid is in an elite band like Bowie, all they can really hope to achieve in UIL Area prelims is to be good enough to be in the pool of 15 or more very good bands from which the rest of the finalists will be chosen. Whether a band is ranked 3rd or 13th in prelims is almost meaningless in terms of any kind of real assessment, or really anything other than the fact that the 3rd ranked band got to go to finals and the 13th ranked band did not. That's just how the prelim lotto worked out on that day. If that's the system we want, then that's fine. But let's not kid outselves -- or more importantly, let's not imply to the kids -- that the "prediction" game is anything but completely pointless entertainment and that except for the elite one or two bands, the other bands can really only hope to make it into the lotto pool. Making predictions assumes some there is some degree of standard by which one can make a reasonable guess as to what it takes for a band to make finals. But there is none. The truth is that for the vast majority of bands, it's a throw of the dice. I tried to not say anything more about the matter but reading this.... I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENT!! I spoke with someone who on a daily basis using a rubik as a grading guide. I was told that if they had someone with the kind of scoring that occuring at UIL, that person would have been retrained and counciled. There is no accountablility to those judges who continue to be out of the scope with everyone else and yet, they are allowed to continue to have such an inpact on bands. I'm not speaking of one or two bands in particular, ... this has been going on forever in UIL. So let's just call the spade a spade and realize that unless a band is an elite "well known" band you are marching for your life, there are no considerations of where you've been or what you have done... UNLESS you are in the elite group of LD Bell, Marcus, Bowie... Unless the whole band falls down and stops playing, they are in finals... I'll go as far as to say that a couple of comments made by one judge to a parent in the pressbox was so outragous and unacceptable that it solidfied the fact that judge had already made his mind up that RR was not going to finals and by scoring the way he did helped put the nail in the coffin. Thank god for BOA... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXMarchingMadness87654 Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) Thank god for BOA... Same thing happens at BOA. I've seen scores where a band will receive as high as a 1 from one judge and, for the same performance, receive a 30 or lower from another judge, for the same exact category(ie marching or music). It happens. Is it fair? No. Is there anything that can be done about it? No. When I was talking to my mom, updating her about Area because she was gone on vacation, she said, "There's no reason to cry over spilled milk." She's right, too, btw. Hey, Haltom missed State this year, after making it six times in a row, by one point. 3/5 judges had them in the top five. Had either one of the other judges who ranked them at 7 and 6 given them one point, there would've been a tie for fifth. Had both judges upped it by a point, they would've been tied for fourth. Is it frustrating? Sure! But every single band student at Haltom is now focused on BOA, not because they've had some great success there(as they have with UIL) but because their marching season is not over. They will work and train and practice to put on the best performance on the field that they can on Friday night. The past is the past. Life is unfair. Not everyone gets a trophy. It's a very difficult but great life lesson. Haltom kids have moved on, as have the parents(who probably get more frustrated about it than the kids do bcse we want our "babies" to win). There's not a thing that can be done. Judging is done by human beings. As long as we have humans judging competitions, there will be weird things that happen, and yes, some will be intentional. That's humanity. So please, for the sake of the ones who have "suffered" under the crazy scoring at BOA, don't put BOA on some judging pedestal. They may "grade" things differently, but the scores are still just as whack-a-doodle as UIL can be. Why? Because they're human beings who are not perfect. I could go into some stories about BOA, but it's pointless. It's in the past. It doesn't matter one single bit this year. Continuing to lament the scoring "issues" will do nothing but keep people from moving on with life.......and life does go on. Good luck to all bands this weekend and next week! Edited October 31, 2012 by TXMarchingMadness87654 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anteok Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Let's just acknowledge what is ultimately going on here. UIL makes no effort to have any kind of predictable rubric or standard for juding marching contests. Different judges will have different ideas of what they want to reward in terms of music and marching. Therefore, unless a kid is in an elite band like Bowie, all they can really hope to achieve in UIL Area prelims is to be good enough to be in the pool of 15 or more very good bands from which the rest of the finalists will be chosen. Whether a band is ranked 3rd or 13th in prelims is almost meaningless in terms of any kind of real assessment, or really anything other than the fact that the 3rd ranked band got to go to finals and the 13th ranked band did not. That's just how the prelim lotto worked out on that day. If that's the system we want, then that's fine. But let's not kid outselves -- or more importantly, let's not imply to the kids -- that the "prediction" game is anything but completely pointless entertainment and that except for the elite one or two bands, the other bands can really only hope to make it into the lotto pool. Making predictions assumes some there is some degree of standard by which one can make a reasonable guess as to what it takes for a band to make finals. But there is none. The truth is that for the vast majority of bands, it's a throw of the dice. Actually, it seems fairly consistent. Less than half the judges put them in finals, and they didn't make finals. It's very possible that a different judging panel would have put Round Rock in finals, but just because luck is a part of the mix does not mean that it's a complete crapshoot. The better a band is, the more likely their chances of getting a second performance. If all a band cares about is where those five professionals happen to place them in comparison to others, they're bound to be dissappointed sometimes, and their only solution is to get better. If, on the other hand, they treat every performance as a chance to communicate on a level deeper than words with each other and a stadium full of people? They might treat finals more like a privelege than as a birthright, and they will probably score better too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drum major Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 life goes on.......... See everyone at BOA and good luck. Be safe on your drive. *** May the odds forever be in your favor! **** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
principalagent Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 So let's just call the spade a spade and realize that unless a band is an elite "well known" band you are marching for your life, there are no considerations of where you've been or what you have done... UNLESS you are in the elite group of LD Bell, Marcus, Bowie... Unless the whole band falls down and stops playing, they are in finals... This is extremely unfair to both programs that "will always make finals" and those who work hard for the chance to advance and cheapens the experience that both groups of programs have in competitions like these. SFA in Sugar Land should be all of the evidence you need to see that this is by no means true. Before they stopped going to Area, they consistently advanced out of Area E. This year, they didn't even get barely left out. What needs to be seen is that those programs have a standard of excellence that is consistent and won't go away in the near future provided everything at those programs stays consistent. LD Bell is having a tough year, but they're still doing great things with a hard package and performing the heck out of their show, which explains their advancing to state again. I was at Area D all day. Just like everyone else, I was shocked that Round Rock didn't make it in as I thought they were a lock for next Tuesday, but things like this happen all the time. I trust that the judges with all of their experience understand marching band on a deeper level than I do after being a member for four years and a spectator for two and can notice and appreciate and nitpick things on a considerably more granular level. All 10 bands who advanced to finals had spectacular performances in both shows and deserved their positions. Life will go on for members of their program, and they'll do very well on Saturday, I'm sure. However, to say that judges are playing politics and favorites with elite bands is unfair to all bands who competed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donezo Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 I absolutely agree with the post before mine. Bell/Marcus/Duncanville/Bowie do not rest on their laurels. They advance to state again and again because they're just that good, not because of who they are. Churchill used to be one of those groups, but they're staying home this year. Westfield and Haltom too in their respective areas. Nobody is given a free pass in this system no matter how many times you've been in State Finals. To suggest otherwise just comes across as sour grapes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverCommittedParent Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 I absolutely agree with the post before mine. Bell/Marcus/Duncanville/Bowie do not rest on their laurels. They advance to state again and again because they're just that good, not because of who they are. Churchill used to be one of those groups, but they're staying home this year. Westfield and Haltom too in their respective areas. Nobody is given a free pass in this system no matter how many times you've been in State Finals. To suggest otherwise just comes across as sour grapes. Just to be clear, in my previous post I was in no way insinuating that Bowie gets a pass because of their reputation. My point was that unless you're in one of the elite bands, such as Bowie, that are so head-and-shoulders-above-the-crowd good that a busdriver pulled in to judge who had never seen a marching band before in his or her life would place you in the top 10, then the best you can do for prelims is be among the very large pool of very good bands who MIGHT have a shot at finals. You have no way of accurately gauging your likelihood for making finals because you simply don't know how the judge will assess your show. If the marching judges can't figure out if Churchill marched a 15 show or a 5 show or if McNeil marched a 2 show or a 17 show, then it's just up for grabs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donezo Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) Just to be clear, in my previous post I was in no way insinuating that Bowie gets a pass because of their reputation. My point was that unless you're in one of the elite bands, such as Bowie, that are so head-and-shoulders-above-the-crowd good that a busdriver pulled in to judge who had never seen a marching band before in his or her life would place you in the top 10, then the best you can do for prelims is be among the very large pool of very good bands who MIGHT have a shot at finals. You have no way of accurately gauging your likelihood for making finals because you simply don't know how the judge will assess your show. If the marching judges can't figure out if Churchill marched a 15 show or a 5 show or if McNeil marched a 2 show or a 17 show, then it's just up for grabs. While there are weird things in every area, this is a problem Area D faces more so than others because there are so many groups that are good enough for finals. I don't think it's that crazy to think that it would be hard to differentiate quality between several of these groups. Edited October 31, 2012 by Donezo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXMarchingMadness87654 Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 I absolutely agree with the post before mine. Bell/Marcus/Duncanville/Bowie do not rest on their laurels. They advance to state again and again because they're just that good, not because of who they are. Churchill used to be one of those groups, but they're staying home this year. Westfield and Haltom too in their respective areas. Nobody is given a free pass in this system no matter how many times you've been in State Finals. To suggest otherwise just comes across as sour grapes. While I completely agree that those bands don't rest on their laurels at ALL, there is some expectation per se, when those who are always on top take the field. You can feel it in the air. The judges wouldn't be human if they didn't sense it, too. When you have an expectation of greatness, there's something inexplicable that goes along with it. In no way do I think that a band's reputation is the sole reason they continue to be on top, though. If that were true, then the torch would never be passed. We are living in the Marcus, The Woodlands, & LD Bell age. Could it last forever? Sure. But it mostly likely will not. There will be other bands who rise to the challenge and overtake those in long-standing at the top. Look at Plano East & Hebron. Hebron earned 2nd place two years ago at area over LD Bell and did again this year, too. Plano East earned 3rd this year. It's the way things go. However, to say that the judges have absolutely no pre-determined ideas when they're judging can't be true.(and I'm not saying you are saying that, just making a point) They're human. You simply hope that the large majority of them don't let their pre-determined feelings for certain bands overtake their sensibilities in what's good or not so good. Again, let's use LD Bell as an example. They came in fourth in area this year. Obviously, even though they've maintained a standard of excellence and reputation, it didn't mean they automatically got 1st, 2nd or even 3rd. In fact, they were 5th after prelims. One could even argue that those who are always on top are graded on a more difficult scale than some others, but I choose to believe that, when it comes down to it, while there may be some expectation from those top bands, the judges are able to judge accordingly. Still, they are human and should be viewed as such, neither putting them on a pedestal nor expecting them to judge perfectly all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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