Innovation

[Moose]

Innovation - 1 : the introduction of something new

2 : a new idea, method, or device

 

Innovation is evident in all aspects of the marching arts. It comes from marching bands and drum corps alike.

 

My question; Who sets the standard when it comes to introducing new and creative aspects to the activity? Is it the marching bands, who spend thousands picking the best design team and crafting the best design, or drum corps, who have amazing talent that the designers use to push the envelope?

 

Things to think about:

 

*The thousands of bands who copy corps.

*The Cadets taking the singing idea in the 06 show from a marching band

*Innovation such as the reagan plume trick or the SCV pants switch in 85

[mbui]

Right now, Ronald Reagan is setting the standard for innovation in the marching band activity. The way they incorporate modern and classical music together is bar none. Creative arranging and a creative sound.

 

I love how they are re-inventing their style year in and year out. When you think..."Man, how can they top what they just did??" They do just that. They find ways to do it better the next year.

 

It's one of the reasons why I love, respect and admire that band program so much.

 

Their shows are also designed in-house which is another thing I love. Band directors arrange/compose the music, colorguard director designs the drill and etc.

[Fortisimo]

Hmm, well, I would say that Drum Corps (especially on an individual program level) carry far more clout than a marching band could ever hope to dream of having. They simply have far more exposure, and heck, let's face it, they're better and cooler. I don't think there's anyone who would rather be like a highschool marching band than a drum corp, and because of these facts, the corps will be the primary force in the world of marching arts.

[davidpowell]

Right now, Ronald Reagan is setting the standard for innovation in the marching band activity. The way they incorporate modern and classical music together is bar none. Creative arranging and a creative sound.

 

I love how they are re-inventing their style year in and year out. When you think..."Man, how can they top what they just did??" They do just that. They find ways to do it better the next year.

 

It's one of the reasons why I love, respect and admire that band program so much.

 

Their shows are also designed in-house which is another thing I love. Band directors arrange/compose the music, colorguard director designs the drill and etc.

As soon as I saw the title "innovation", Reagan popped into my head.

 

Its pretty amazing what they do at that school...

 

Plymouth Canton of old can't not be mentioned though. Seriously.

[mbui]

QUOTE (Fortisimo @ Mar 13 2006, 10:52 PM)

Hmm, well, I would say that Drum Corps (especially on an individual program level) carry far more clout than a marching band could ever hope to dream of having.  They simply have far more exposure, and heck, let's face it, they're better and cooler.  I don't think there's anyone who would rather be like a highschool marching band than a drum corp, and because of these facts, the corps will be the primary force in the world of marching arts.

I disagree.

 

Bands in the 1990's were on a whole other level than drum corps when it came to innovation in the marching arts. Spring HS (TX), Center Grove HS (IN), Plymouth Canton EP (MI) were all producing shows that we thought were impossible. People wanted to be just like them.

 

As far as exposure....the average person knows more about a marching band than drum corps. Marching band is everywhere. They are in the majority of our public high schools. Believe it or not, there are people who are heavily involved in band that are clueless when it comes to drum corps.

 

I don't know....I find marching band to be just as cool as drum corps. Then again, the whole drum corps is superior to marching band mindset has always been a huge pet-peeve of mine.

[mbui]

QUOTE (davidpowell @ Mar 13 2006, 11:22 PM)

Plymouth Canton of old can't not be mentioned though. Seriously.

I agree, David.

 

Some of the things I said about Reagan also applies to Plymouth Canton.

(Whcih reminds me...I also mentioned it in an article I wrote last year: http://content.txbands.com/index.php?blog=...=1&pb=1#more40)

 

PCEP produced some monster stuff back in the day, especially the 1998-2001 years. I would not have been shocked if they came away with four Grand National titles during that four year span.

[Fortisimo]

I maintain that a high ranking corp simply has more exposure within the community compared to any one band. While it is true that there more people who know of marching band than corps the fact is these people are generally not part of the marching community. And if there is any significant amount of people "heavily involved in band that are clueless when it comes to drum corps" I would be very suprised. And the mindset isn't just some sort of prejudice; it stems from the fact that almost always drum corps are gonna be better than hgih-school bands for the simple reason that they draw highly dedicated applicants in small numbers from large pools. On the other hand, bands are a simple voluntary thing which you can simply elect to do, rather than putting forth lot's of effort to try out. But you seem to be focusing your arguement at the level of innovation, but the fact remains that Corps still play a larger role in setting the tone for the marching community. Besides, this isn't the 90's now, is it?

 

And was their shows actually viewed as impossibilities? I've seen recordings of most of those and while they are extremely impressive I would never have marked them as being impossible. Although, maybe I overestimate the ability of bands; one only has to listen to the music I write for shows to realize that this is a very real possibility.

[Danpod]

At the time, they were. Back then, you looked at some of the ideas, both musically and visually, and you think to yourself, "Why didn't I think of that???"

[Xenon]

it stems from the fact that almost always drum corps are gonna be better than hgih-school bands for the simple reason that they draw highly dedicated applicants in small numbers from large pools.

There are quite a few Highschool bands that I'm pretty sure could make DCI World Finals.

 

As big as I am into HS Marching Band, I only went to my first DCI event last year. And I have to say, that outside of about the top 6 or 8, I was fairly dissappointed. I expected the same thing that you do, that with all of the selection, dedication, hard work, etc, that towards the end of the season at DCI Southwest, that you wouldn't still have a significant number of people out of step, significantly phased, or have significant tuning issues, but I saw all of those in most of the lower Div I corps.

 

The fact is that the DCI selection process only really supports the corps that are at the top. The best of the talent tries out for at least one of the top corps and those corps choose the best of the best from that group. This makes the top corps full of talent, but doesn't leave nearly as good of a talent pool for the rest of the corps, and it seems that normally, at this point, the rest of the corps get a fairly even distribution of the rest of the talent and the people who love Drum Corps but aren't necessarily very talented (but still good).

[Fortisimo]

I can see how that would be true; on the other hand though, the remaining corps who are amazingly good have massive massive amounts of influence in the field of marching arts.

[euro_euph06]

There are quite a few Highschool bands that I'm pretty sure could make DCI World Finals.

 

I am pretty sure that not a single high school marching band would DCI WORLD FINALS because of the simple thing called a woodwind player.

 

 

As big as I am into HS Marching Band, I only went to my first DCI event last year.

[Moose]

I am pretty sure that not a single high school marching band would DCI WORLD FINALS because of the simple thing called a woodwind player.

 

 

Your taking it to literally. Obviously, a marching band couldn't compete in DCI. It's easier to see the comparison Xenon is making if you turn the situation around. If a drum corps, Carolina Crown for example, were to compete in a BOA event , do you think they would get first by a huge margine? It is very possible that they would get first, but there are many talented bands in Texas and other states that could give them a run for there money.

[Fortisimo]

I don't think so; drum corps even of that caliber are clearly far advanced compared to even the strongest high school bands. How can you possibly deny that? There's a reason they are shown on ESPN and bands aren't. I mean, it's really no competition; the upper parts of DCI are just plain a different caliber from high school bands.

[euro_euph06]

Your taking it to literally. Obviously, a marching band couldn't compete in DCI. It's easier to see the comparison Xenon is making if you turn the situation around. If a drum corps, Carolina Crown for example, were to compete in a BOA event , do you think they would get first by a huge margine? It is very possible that they would get first, but there are many talented bands in Texas and other states that could give them a run for there money.

I am not taking it too literally. If Crown was to compete at BOA event, they would blow away everyone. They play so in balance, so in-tune, with so much finesse (as do the other "top" corps) that not a single high school band could touch them. I see where Xenon is coming from. That is why there is exhibition groups at BOA. That is why groups like UT at Austin and Arlington are there to showcase what is to be on the next level of music education and what can occur. I mean, come on, if UT was to compete with Ronald Reagan and Carmel (if some rules were broken--as in the ones dealing with only high school bands can compete), what do you think would happen?

 

 

I don't think so; drum corps even of that caliber are clearly far advanced compared to even the strongest high school bands. How can you possibly deny that? There's a reason they are shown on ESPN and bands aren't. I mean, it's really no competition; the upper parts of DCI are just plain a different caliber from high school bands.

[Fortisimo]

Thank you! I never thought I would see the day where I would actually have to argue something I considered so fundamental as this.

[mbui]

QUOTE (Fortisimo @ Mar 14 2006, 12:04 AM)

Besides, this isn't the 90's now, is it?

While drum corps as of late have caught up with the times, I still feel that marching band is ahead of the game regarding innovation in the marching arts. There are only two shows that have set the bar since the new millennium in drum corps. The 2002 Cavaliers and the 2005 Cadets.

 

About The 2005 Cadets...

Yes, that show was different for drum corps. However, it was not the most groundbreaking thing we have seen on the field. We have all seen more innovative and "extreme" shows in marching band.

 

QUOTE (Fortisimo @ Mar 14 2006, 12:04 AM)

And was their shows actually viewed as impossibilities?  I've seen recordings of most of those and while they are extremely impressive I would never have marked them as being impossible.

Read Dan's post. He said it best.

[mbui]

QUOTE (euro_euph06 @ Mar 14 2006, 07:08 PM)

I am not taking it too literally. If Crown was to compete at BOA event, they would blow away everyone. They play so in balance, so in-tune, with so much finesse (as do the other "top" corps) that not a single high school band could touch them.

This is where the question gets murkier when you raise the question of which sheets you use.

 

If you're using DCI sheets, the individual guard and percussion scores would be a large enough spread to knock good BOA groups out of Finals. However, BOA's emphasis is on the full ensemble and overall picture. Individual captions aren't rewarded as much numerically. Also, how can a judge fairly judge a drum corps in a marching band competition? No woodwinds = a problem.

 

Nonetheless, I think the "Can a marching band beat a drum corps?" debate is silly. There are so many issues that need to be addressed. And, you're comparing apples and oranges.

[Fortisimo]

They are not that dissimilar. The absence of woodwinds is a minor thing; just a difference of instrumentation. It is also part of what makes the corps sound great; you simply cannot get the same kind of sound out of say a clarinet as you can a trumpet or french horn. Technicalities such as specific grading sheets aside, it is clear that corps are way better than bands. You only have to watch a view videos to realize this. Do you think there is a single band out there that could handle the Cavalier's drill from Spin Cycle? Do think there is a single band who could belt out Phantom of the Opera like SCV? What about Niagra Falls? These are only a few examples, but I think I've made my point. The corps are better. That's all there is to it, and therefore, they get more widespread coverage in a broader audience and therefore have more influence.

[euro_euph06]

While drum corps as of late have caught up with the times, I still feel that marching band is ahead of the game regarding innovation in the marching arts. There are only two shows that have set the bar since the new millennium in drum corps. The 2002 Cavaliers and the 2005 Cadets.

 

About The 2005 Cadets...

Yes, that show was different for drum corps. However, it was not the most groundbreaking thing we have seen on the field. We have all seen more innovative and "extreme" shows in marching band.

 

 

Read Dan's post. He said it best.

Drum corps caught up with the times? I thought they started it. But that could just be me. You can't say that Reagon '03 had better innovative juices than Cavaliers '00 to '05. Same with Cadets '00 and '05. Even Crown '04, Bluecoats '05, Star '93, and the list goes on and on and on.

 

 

 

This is where the question gets murkier when you raise the question of which sheets you use.

 

If you're using DCI sheets, the individual guard and percussion scores would be a large enough spread to knock good BOA groups out of Finals. However, BOA's emphasis is on the full ensemble and overall picture. Individual captions aren't rewarded as much numerically. Also, how can a judge fairly judge a drum corps in a marching band competition? No woodwinds = a problem.

 

Nonetheless, I think the "Can a marching band beat a drum corps?" debate is silly. There are so many issues that need to be addressed. And, you're comparing apples and oranges.

 

 

Full Ensemble=balance, in-tune, finesse (a.k.a Carolina Crown, Cavaliers, and others). No woodwinds=Awesome. Listen to the last 3 minutes of Cadets 2000. I am pretty sure that mello line (and others) would smoke a lot of woodwind sections at many high schools.

 

 

 

BTW--has any high school successfully (on a judging standpoint) put Niagra Falls on the field? What about Phantom of the Opera? Case and Point.

[mbui]

QUOTE (Fortisimo @ Mar 15 2006, 10:36 AM)

Do you think there is a single band out there that could handle the Cavalier's drill from Spin Cycle?  Do think there is a single band who could belt out Phantom of the Opera like SCV? The corps are better.  That's all there is to it, and therefore, they get more widespread coverage in a broader audience and therefore have more influence.

I can name several shows off the top of my head.

 

Westfield HS, TX 1992

One of the most impressive high school drill designs I've seen. The Cadets used design from this show in their 1993 championship production. I believe Marc Sylvester was the drill designer for both groups.

 

Spring HS, TX 1993

This is the only 140 member band I have ever seen that was so clean and so powerful. Greg Poklacki was the visual designer, and he incorporated drill that we didn't even see in DCI competition until 1995 when he designed the Cavaliers show. Spring's show is respected by so many people in music education. Make no mistake, it was the consensus opinion of those in drum corps, at the time, that this marching band would have made DCI Finals. They would have done so in impressive fashion.

 

P.S.: Alan Iron's wrote an outstanding article on Spring 1993 in the TXBandsPress Blog.

Click here to view.

 

Marian Catholic HS, IL 1998

A very powerful and aggressive approach to Ottorino Respighi & Alberto Ginastera's music. The quality of both Marian 1998 and Star of Indiana 1993 are quite comparable, IMO.

 

QUOTE (Fortisimo @ Mar 15 2006, 10:36 AM)

The corps are better.  That's all there is to it, and therefore, they get more widespread coverage in a broader audience and therefore have more influence.

I agree, corps are better. However, only when we're talking about the upper-echelon.

 

I think the reason so many people have such an issue with this, is when you compare marching band to drum corps, everyone has, say, The Cadets or Cavaliers, in their mind. Try to stack the BOA big leagues up against that, of course they're going to lose. But, we're not talking about Carmel HS beating The Cadets, we're talking about them just making Finals. People seem to forget that the discrepency between BOA between place number 1 and 12 is signifincantly different than DCI's 1 and 12.

[mbui]

QUOTE (euro_euph06 @ Mar 15 2006, 1:00 PM)

Drum corps caught up with the times? I thought they started it. But that could just be me. You can't say that Reagon '03 had better innovative juices than Cavaliers '00 to '05. Same with Cadets '00 and '05. Even Crown '04, Bluecoats '05, Star '93, and the list goes on and on and on.

Yes, all of the shows you mentioned were creative. However, I'm not talking about individual shows vs. individual shows. I'm talking about the activity as a whole. In marching band, the possibilities are endless. You can do so much more.

 

In DCI, there are so many more rules in place which put a cap on creative ideas for show designers. Why did we see DCI pass the amplification rule? To add more color to the music. To add another element, the human voice, so corps can have the ability to make their productions, sound, design and etc, more creative. For example, look at all of the new african/latin percussion instruments that have been introduced to drum corps since the rule passed in 2004. Without those instruments, shows such as Blue Devils 2004, Cavaliers 2004, Bluecoats 2004 & 2005 would not be the same.

 

QUOTE (euro_euph06 @ Mar 15 2006, 1:00 PM)

BTW--has any high school successfully (on a judging standpoint) put Niagra Falls on the field? What about Phantom of the Opera? Case and Point.

Let's spin it the other way....

Has any corps matched the power of Paul Hindemith's "Symphony in Bb" & "Symphonic Metamorphosis" like Spring HS, TX 1993?

 

Has any corps matched the power of "The Wind and the Lion" like Lassiter HS, GA 1998? The Magic of Orlando did the same piece in 2002 and the intensity and raw emotion was not in the league of Lassiter's.

 

My point.....there are good bands and bad bands just like there are good corps and bad corps. Could any band truly compete with Cavaliers 2002? Probably not. But, the best bands at BOA Grand Nationals would be somewhere in the mix o a DCI Final.

[davidpowell]

We seem to have some elitists on our hands, eh?

 

All I can say is, a lack of woodwinds is not neccesarily a good thing. Brass players in general tend to think it is, but I would entreat any trumpet player to look at the clarinet part for Scherezade and tell me you don't need a clarinet. Or Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Fawn and tell me you don't need a flute. As a marching arts community, we tend to forget what we came from: symphonic music.

 

But on the blend side, seriously, have you sat and watched BOA finals? Some of it is just ridiculous. RIDICULOUS.

 

But rather than doing the immature thing and trying to be serious about the comparison, take it in stride and realize both sides do amazing things. Please.

[Fortisimo]

That Afternoon for a Fawn song is a joke. Just my opinion I suppose, but hey, it is my opinion. However, I can see where woodwinds might be needed, but I can see a lot of places where they would be a liabliity as well.

 

Has any corps matched the power of Paul Hindemith's "Symphony in Bb" & "Symphonic Metamorphosis" like Spring HS, TX 1993?

Are you kidding me? Many times over! Just because some band 12 years ago was amazingly good, considered the best highschool band ever, they still didn't have the force as say, the first hit in The Defiant Heart or Music of the Night in Phantom of the Opera or Canon in Harmonic Journey or the final hit in NIagra Falls or the reprisal in Apasionada 874 or, for the love of God, Malguena in A Drum Corp Fan's dream. I have not once heard a BOA competition were someone wails on a trumpet like they do routinely at DCI. Heck, at the Arlington regional I don't anyone even went over a high C or maybe high D. Even we had a double G, but no, you still seem to think that some BOA contest out there somewhere can even begin to compete with the world championships. People see DCI is the profeesional version of marching band- and not without reason.

 

And blend? It only takes you so far if you have to sacrifice volume and passion to achieve it; something the strong corps don't have to do. Of course they both do cool stuff, but your right- you can't compare them because corps are so much bettter in a very true and fundamental way.

[euro_euph06]

We seem to have some elitists on our hands, eh?

 

All I can say is, a lack of woodwinds is not neccesarily a good thing. Brass players in general tend to think it is, but I would entreat any trumpet player to look at the clarinet part for Scherezade and tell me you don't need a clarinet. Or Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Fawn and tell me you don't need a flute. As a marching arts community, we tend to forget what we came from: symphonic music.

 

But on the blend side, seriously, have you sat and watched BOA finals? Some of it is just ridiculous. RIDICULOUS.

 

But rather than doing the immature thing and trying to be serious about the comparison, take it in stride and realize both sides do amazing things. Please.

Have you ever heard Fire of Eternal Glory. I have a recording of it. PM me with your email. You can not say that a woodwind choir could surpass the power of brass in this piece.

 

This year I had the opportunity to watch SA Super Regional Finals due to a bad stroke of luck. I wanted to poke my eyes out with my straw. Have you ever seen a DCI World Championship? That is awesome--from top to bottom. No one will surpass the Blue Devils, SCV, and the Cadets will the number of top placements. Ronald Reagan can't win 11 World Championships. Ever.

 

In marching band, the possibilities are endless. You can do so much more.

 

What can you do so much more in? Why are the possibilities endless only in marching band? Just because there is rules "capping" what a corps can do, there is the same in BOA and definitely UIL.

 

Has any corps matched the power of Paul Hindemith's "Symphony in Bb" & "Symphonic Metamorphosis" like Spring HS, TX 1993?

 

Ummm... Cavaliers did the march of Symphonic Metamorphosis in 1994. As does most H.S. marching bands in the country. Except they own any high school that ever did it manage to play it.

 

I am just going to come out and say it:

 

Division 1 DCI World Championship is better than BOA Grand Nats. Some shows might be as difficult as the Kwanisis Cavaliers and Pioneer, but not even Carmel and Ronald Reagan (and whoever else for that matter) would not scratch the surface of the Top 12 Finals in DCI. They do not have the time corps do. They do not have the work ethic of a corps. They do not have the resources corps have. No high school band has the money to travel almost 3 months around the nation.

 

DCI is superior to H.S. Marching Band. PERIOD.

[Fortisimo]

Have you ever heard Fire of Eternal Glory. I have a recording of it. PM me with your email. You can not say that a woodwind choir could surpass the power of brass in this piece.

 

This year I had the opportunity to watch SA Super Regional Finals due to a bad stroke of luck. I wanted to poke my eyes out with my straw. Have you ever seen a DCI World Championship? That is awesome--from top to bottom. No one will surpass the Blue Devils, SCV, and the Cadets will the number of top placements. Ronald Reagan can't win 11 World Championships. Ever.

 

 

 

What can you do so much more in? Why are the possibilities endless only in marching band? Just because there is rules "capping" what a corps can do, there is the same in BOA and definitely UIL.

 

 

 

Ummm... Cavaliers did the march of Symphonic Metamorphosis in 1994. As does most H.S. marching bands in the country. Except they own any high school that ever did it manage to play it.

 

I am just going to come out and say it:

 

Division 1 DCI World Championship is better than BOA Grand Nats. Some shows might be as difficult as the Kwanisis Cavaliers and Pioneer, but not even Carmel and Ronald Reagan (and whoever else for that matter) would not scratch the surface of the Top 12 Finals in DCI. They do not have the time corps do. They do not have the work ethic of a corps. They do not have the resources corps have. No high school band has the money to travel almost 3 months around the nation.

 

DCI is superior to H.S. Marching Band. PERIOD.

AMEN