davidpowell Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Haha, thanks for taking what I said completely out of its context. I said woodwinds a neccesary instrument and texture, not that a woodwind choir could outplay a brass choir. Try reading the whole thing next time before jumping to a conclusion. Thanks. And of COURSE DCI groups are better than high school groups. Thats problem THE MOST redundant thing you can say, much less capitalize it as if people don't already know. Its like saying a college football team could take on a professional football team, or a highschool chess champion could take on Gary Kasparov. Its just completely understood. But the fact that Carmel's show was a bunch of HIGHSCHOOL KIDS from EVERY GRADE doing it WILLINGLY is beyond belief, and that goes for any top marching band group. Period. High notes? If I want high notes, I'll listen to a violin concerto, thanks much. Playing high isn't really all that amazing. Sure, it takes practice to do, but so does playing Bartok's piano concertos or Rite of Spring, or doing lip trills on french horn. But you don't wet your pants when you hear someone do a lip trill, even though its just as if not harder to do well then play high. Playing high is just a pretty "visceral" effect, if you will, nothing horribly musical about it. And Fortissimo, you never saw Clinton High School, they had one kid who absolutely WAILED over everybody. So it does happen in highschool groups. Just not as often, obviously. Drama, drama, drama, sheesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose Posted March 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 I think we kinda missed the whole question, but oh well. I guess what I was really asking was, not which is superior, but where do most of the good Ideas come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortisimo Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 So why do your co-supporters for the HS bands so vehemently argue that, and I quote, "many talented bands in Texas and other states that could give them a run for there money. " Obviously, they (and you implied that you yourself) didn't seem to understand this basic fact. There is no capitalization involved here- we were making our arguement about DCI being better in order to establish our primary arguement in relation to the thread's topic. You, on the other hand, are pulling your arguement in a completely different direction now; so I suppose you concede then that we were right after all? It's about time. Maybe you went and listened to/watched some recordings. We have not once said anything about how impressive a band may be in context of its handicaps- we have only discussed the overall performance and it's correlation to influence in the realm of the marching arts. It's not difficult at all for a violin to play high; its obvious you missed the point of having impressive range abilities with a brass instrument. I'll assume you simply have no experience with such things and thereofre have no context. Not so often indeed. And I wonder why not... And are you bashing the Rite of Spring? Or Bartok's works? Surely not. Le Sacre du Pritemps is a groundbreaking work of art and it shatters much of what is percieved as orthodox. Talk about innovation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidpowell Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Exactly. A run for their money.I'm sure Carmel could go against Spirit or the Glassmen and give them a good run for it. I'm not even going to say anything about your "range" comment, because its one of the more naive things you have said. And of COURSE I'm bashing Rite of Spring. What a HORRIBLE piece of work. Everything I write is better than that Stravinsky hoax's garbage. Some of the stuff that has been said is just plain out funny, seriously. I was pointing out that fact that all of those things simply take practice, as does playing high. You don't go nuts if a pianist plays one of Bartok's concertos. Or if you hear a recording of Dennis Brain doing a ridiculously fast lip trill. But playing high? Buy the guy a car or something. The emphasis put on high range is extremely out of proportion. So quit holding some vendetta. Yes, a top 5 drum corps is inevitably going to be better than the top marching band at Grand Nationals. Awesome. I said it. Bask in your glory. Seriously, some of you guys need to get out of your marching band shell every now and then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montoya Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 I just wanted to say that this post makes me laugh! Not the initial question, but rather the humorous exchange between fortisimo and david powell. Thanks for giving me something to kill time with while I should be writing music!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euro_euph06 Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 So why do your co-supporters for the HS bands so vehemently argue that, and I quote, "many talented bands in Texas and other states that could give them a run for there money. " Obviously, they (and you implied that you yourself) didn't seem to understand this basic fact. There is no capitalization involved here- we were making our arguement about DCI being better in order to establish our primary arguement in relation to the thread's topic. You, on the other hand, are pulling your arguement in a completely different direction now; so I suppose you concede then that we were right after all? It's about time. Maybe you went and listened to/watched some recordings. We have not once said anything about how impressive a band may be in context of its handicaps- we have only discussed the overall performance and it's correlation to influence in the realm of the marching arts. It's not difficult at all for a violin to play high; its obvious you missed the point of having impressive range abilities with a brass instrument. I'll assume you simply have no experience with such things and thereofre have no context. Not so often indeed. And I wonder why not... And are you bashing the Rite of Spring? Or Bartok's works? Surely not. Le Sacre du Pritemps is a groundbreaking work of art and it shatters much of what is percieved as orthodox. Talk about innovation! Amen. Exactly. A run for their money.I'm sure Carmel could go against Spirit or the Glassmen and give them a good run for it. I'm not even going to say anything about your "range" comment, because its one of the more naive things you have said. No Carmel wouldn't. They would give Kwananis Kavaliers a run for their money. And of COURSE I'm bashing Rite of Spring. What a HORRIBLE piece of work. Everything I write is better than that Stravinsky hoax's garbage. Some of the stuff that has been said is just plain out funny, seriously. LOL I was pointing out that fact that all of those things simply take practice, as does playing high. You don't go nuts if a pianist plays one of Bartok's concertos. Or if you hear a recording of Dennis Brain doing a ridiculously fast lip trill. But playing high? Buy the guy a car or something. The emphasis put on high range is extremely out of proportion. The environment involved in piano concertos does not allow for people to go hog wild over an awesome performance of it. I recommend that you listen to any Blue Devils performance. There is a reason that correlates to the success of them. Better yet, why dont you contact them and ask why they are so good. I am willing to go out on a limb and say things, but for the sake of time....infer. So quit holding some vendetta. Yes, a top 5 drum corps is inevitably going to be better than the top marching band at Grand Nationals. Awesome. I said it. Bask in your glory. Seriously, some of you guys need to get out of your marching band shell every now and then. Whats that? We do get out of marching band "shells" but we are in a heated debate. Why leave? Haha, thanks for taking what I said completely out of its context. I said woodwinds a neccesary instrument and texture, not that a woodwind choir could outplay a brass choir. Try reading the whole thing next time before jumping to a conclusion. Thanks. But the fact that Carmel's show was a bunch of HIGHSCHOOL KIDS from EVERY GRADE doing it WILLINGLY is beyond belief, and that goes for any top marching band group. Period. High notes? If I want high notes, I'll listen to a violin concerto, thanks much. Playing high isn't really all that amazing. Sure, it takes practice to do, but so does playing Bartok's piano concertos or Rite of Spring, or doing lip trills on french horn. But you don't wet your pants when you hear someone do a lip trill, even though its just as if not harder to do well then play high. Playing high is just a pretty "visceral" effect, if you will, nothing horribly musical about it. I never said that. I said POWER. That has more POWER. Here is the word again: POWER. One mo gin: POWER. How bout in green: POWER. Learn to read. Duh, one brass player can outplay a ton of woodwinds. DCI is also: 1) People-- mostly of age 14-21 in Div 1. 2) Everyone does it willingly. High notes? Nothing musical about it? Blasphemy!!! It takes years for a trumpet player to develop the PROPER chops and embrouchere (sp) to play of a high quality. Woodwinds and Strings have a set range. Brass players (with a ton of practice) can play any note they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbui Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 QUOTE (euro_euph06 @ Mar 15 2006, 04:40 PM)What can you do so much more in? Why are the possibilities endless only in marching band? Just because there is rules "capping" what a corps can do, there is the same in BOA and definitely UIL. There is a difference between DCI rules and BOA, USSBA, WBC, TOB & UIL rules. DCI prohibits the use of all non-brass instruments. The only thing that marching band circuits prohibit are pre-recorded music. If bands want to stick a bagpipe on the field....no one is there to stop them. In marching band, you can do so much more idea wise, instrumentation wise, prop wise. Where do we see the more extravagant and "out there" shows? In marching band. QUOTE (euro_euph06 @ Mar 15 2006, 04:40 PM)But not even Carmel and Ronald Reagan (and whoever else for that matter) would not scratch the surface of the Top 12 Finals in DCI. They do not have the time corps do. They do not have the work ethic of a corps. They do not have the resources corps have. No high school band has the money to travel almost 3 months around the nation. About work ethic in marching band...yeah, only if you're talking about some random band program. But, when you look at the best of the best...the work ethic is there. If it wasn't, how did they get so successful? The key ingredient to a good anything....work ethic. Resources... I'll provide a few examples. Take a look at the staff of some of the best bands in the country. Carmel HS, IN Richard Saucedo (Head Band Director & Cavaliers Brass Arranger) Michael Gaines (Visual Designer for Carmel HS, Cavaliers & Spirit) Mike McIntosh (Percussion Director & Bluecoats Percussion Arranger) Kennesaw Mountain HS, GA David Starnes (Head Band Director & Spirit Program Coordinator) Richard Saucedo (Brass Arranger for Kennesaw Mtn. HS, Cavaliers, & Spirit) Michael Gaines (Visual Designer for Kennesaw Mtn. HS, Cavaliers & Spirit) Nick Angelis (Percussion Director Stephen F. Austin HS, TX Dean Westman (Former Head Director & SCV Brass Arranger) Jim Casella (Percussion Arranger for SF Austin HS, L.D. Bell HS & Cavaliers. Former SCV Percussion Arranger) Gordon Henderson (Brass Arranger for SF Austin HS and Former SCV Brass Arranger) Jay Bocook (Brass Arranger for SF Austin HS, Lassiter HS, Avon HS & The Cadets) Ralph Hardimon (SF Austin HS Percussion Tech & DCI Percussion Extraordinaire) The resources are there. Some of the best in marching band teach in drum corps. QUOTE (euro_euph06 @ Mar 15 2006, 04:40 PM)DCI is superior to H.S. Marching Band. PERIOD. I have been supporting the drum corps activity for I don't know how many years. I've sponsored members and I've donated to corps. But, it is statements like that really turn me off about the activity. Yes, drum corps as a whole are better than marching bands. But, there are bad corps as well. There is no denying that. Pioneers, Mandarins, Troopers and Kiwanis Kavaliers on the same level as Kennesaw Mountain, Lawrence Central, L.D. Bell, Ronald Reagan, Lassiter, Carmel?? Not even close. Even if they are marching bands, there is a huge difference between said groups. Again, I hate comparing corps to bands and bands to corps. But, there is a clear difference between the lower-level of DCI and the upper-tier of a BOA Grand National Finalist band. With that said..... This will be my final $.02 on this matter. We are going to have to all disagree with one another on this one. It really is to good to hear how other people view about this. I only wish there were more people in this world that would appreciate the marching arts like we do. Happy Marching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortisimo Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Haha! What a joke! We need to come out of our 'shell'? You would condescend the Rite and then tell us we are too limited in our views? Hah! You called elitist, but you sound just like a snooty upper-class theater go-er from the early 1910's when it was released in Paris. The underworkings of the Rite are incredibly comlpex and are not easily understood. Although, it makes sense; you are the person who commented that you would enjoy an entirely slow marching show. As far as I am concerened, it seems your tastes don't entail what is at the heart of marching arts- I see you work.. you dismiss musical evolution and creativity, yet you support marching innovation. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course. And yeah, I hold a lot of respect for people who hone their skills as those you mentioned would have. Your comment about it as having "nothing horribly musical about it", but obviously your taste in music has blinded you too the huge and absolutely branch of technique known as the climax. I can't understand how you could possibly enjoy something like "The Afternoon of a Fawn" or whatever, but obviously the sentiment of anti-climax permeates your entire perception of music. Have you ever had straight carbonated water/ Like, when a fountain machine runs out of syrup, but it still gives you the rancid stuff and you don't notice and take a drink? Well, the climax is the syrup and the rest of the stuff inbetween is the carbonated water, of which it is necessary to have a certain amount of, but not viable alone either. However, I digress. There's no vendetta; in fact, I can't even see why you would use such diction ion this instance. It's plain and simple fact. It's more than the top 5, too. You can idolize these HS bands all you want and that won't change the fact taht they simply aren't as good or influential. And mbui, I completely agree with your last statement; it is such controversy and love for the art that keeps it alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euro_euph06 Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 In marching band, you can do so much more idea wise, instrumentation wise, prop wise. Where do we see the more extravagant and "out there" shows? In marching band. Uh...examples pl0x!!! If I want to see birds pecking the ground I'll go outside and watch it for free. w00t-w00t!!! I have been supporting the drum corps activity for I don't know how many years. I've sponsored members and I've donated to corps. But, it is statements like that really turn me off about the activity. I'm sorry you feel that way. That is my opinion. DCI is just better (he-he). Yes, drum corps as a whole are better than marching bands. But, there are bad corps as well. There is no denying that. Pioneers, Mandarins, Troopers and Kiwanis Kavaliers on the same level as Kennesaw Mountain, Lawrence Central, L.D. Bell, Ronald Reagan, Lassiter, Carmel?? Not even close. Even if they are marching bands, there is a huge difference between said groups. Again, I hate comparing corps to bands and bands to corps. But, there is a clear difference between the lower-level of DCI and the upper-tier of a BOA Grand National Finalist band. Mandarins is better than Carmel. I've seen both. Plus there are more Asians with the Mandarins . But there are more (percentage based and based on scores, not defined by the schools themselves) "bad" high school marching bands than there are Division 1 Drum Corps. With that said..... This will be my final $.02 on this matter. We are going to have to all disagree with one another on this one. It really is to good to hear how other people view about this. I only wish there were more people in this world that would appreciate the marching arts like we do. Happy Marching. I love inside jokes. And mbui, I completely agree with your last statement; it is such controversy and love for the art that keeps it alive. Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortisimo Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Lmao, no kidding to that first thing; what was Marcus thinking? They still did well, but that's probably because I'm not a judge! Haha, I kid, but really, good performance, bad show. Anyways.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Lmao, no kidding to that first thing; what was Marcus thinking? They still did well, but that's probably because I'm not a judge! Haha, I kid, but really, good performance, bad show. Anyways.... That show was just completely awesome from ALL standpoints, period. Anyone who denies that is just letting preconceived notions get in the way of good judgement. Too many people have completely dismissed this show simply because it is so well themed. Why can't a show be themed and well designed? Does cute always mean bad? That show was fun, extremely well choreographed, extremely well planned out, had some really nice drill, extremely hard music that most bands couldn't even begin to play, and it was played and marched incredibly well. And you need to learn when people are using a technique called "Sarcasm"! (refering to the the Rite of Spring comments) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euro_euph06 Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 That show was just completely awesome from ALL standpoints, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortisimo Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 That show was just completely awesome from ALL standpoints, period. Anyone who denies that is just letting preconceived notions get in the way of good judgement. Too many people have completely dismissed this show simply because it is so well themed. Why can't a show be themed and well designed? Does cute always mean bad? That show was fun, extremely well choreographed, extremely well planned out, had some really nice drill, extremely hard music that most bands couldn't even begin to play, and it was played and marched incredibly well. And you need to learn when people are using a technique called "Sarcasm"! (refering to the the Rite of Spring comments) hah! I already conceded that it was well performed and was fairly difficult, but really, birds? There's nothing amazing or musical about birds. I guess it's just me, but I don't think that the marching field is a place to express things that are 'fun' and could be possibly taken as a 'joke'. If I were in the Marcus band I probably would have slacked off all season (not to the point were it would be detrimental, but to where I would be at best benign) because the show was based off of a, pardon my bluntness, stupid theme. Like Euro said, I would much rather see the DCI world than the BOA nationals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose Posted March 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 hah! I already conceded that it was well performed and was fairly difficult, but really, birds? There's nothing amazing or musical about birds. I guess it's just me, but I don't think that the marching field is a place to express things that are 'fun' and could be possibly taken as a 'joke'. Nothing musical about birds.... Except the fact that they "sing". Ottorino Respighi would also disagree with you, as he wrote a piece simply called "The Birds." Other composers that were influenced by the music that birds create were Beethoven, John Luther Adams, Oliver Messiaen and all of these guys... Farnaby, Giles (c1563-1640) English; WOODY-COCK, keyboard Kerll, Johann Caspar (1627 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortisimo Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Lol, most of those songs I really don't enjoy. Maybe then it's just personal preference. Although, I noticed you slipped this little number in there; Stravinsky, Igor (1882-1971), Russian; THE FIREBIRD, orchestral, 1919 - I really like this piece, but you may notice that there is way more to it than birds. It would be foolish to think otherwise- I mean, who has ever heard of a real firebird? No, there is much more to this piece. There are a few others that are alright, but most of them are flops, in my own opinion. It is true though, I misspoke when I said there was nothing musical about them; I was thinking more of there's nothing worth writing in music about them alone. But like I said, that's just what I think. And I can see where maybe a band could pull of a comedic show, but only if it was intended that way. The whole Music for the Birds premise wasn't meant to be funny (or they failed horribly) and it wasn't really serious either. It was just sort of devoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose Posted March 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Lol, most of those songs I really don't enjoy. Maybe then it's just personal preference. Although, I noticed you slipped this little number in there; Stravinsky, Igor (1882-1971), Russian; THE FIREBIRD, orchestral, 1919 - I really like this piece, but you may notice that there is way more to it than birds. It would be foolish to think otherwise- I mean, who has ever heard of a real firebird? No, there is much more to this piece. There are a few others that are alright, but most of them are flops, in my own opinion. It is true though, I misspoke when I said there was nothing musical about them; I was thinking more of there's nothing worth writing in music about them alone. But like I said, that's just what I think. And I can see where maybe a band could pull of a comedic show, but only if it was intended that way. The whole Music for the Birds premise wasn't meant to be funny (or they failed horribly) and it wasn't really serious either. It was just sort of devoid. As far as I'm concerned, a band could do a show about sand and still make finals. Really silly concept, but if the drill/music is well written and performed, then the concept takes a back seat. Some bands in the lower places in BOA competitions rely fully on a concept. Bands like Marcus, Bowie, Reagan, etc. don't have to. And you truly don't enjoy Beethoven's 6th, Carnival of Animals, Pines of Rome, or the Four Seasons? I would think a composer like yourself would appreciate some of those classics. To each his own I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 And you truly don't enjoy Beethoven's 6th, Carnival of Animals, Pines of Rome, or the Four Seasons? I would think a composer like yourself would appreciate some of those classics. To each his own I guess. Pines of Rome & Fountains of Rome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortisimo Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 As far as I'm concerned, a band could do a show about sand and still make finals. Really silly concept, but if the drill/music is well written and performed, then the concept takes a back seat. Some bands in the lower places in BOA competitions rely fully on a concept. Bands like Marcus, Bowie, Reagan, etc. don't have to. And you truly don't enjoy Beethoven's 6th, Carnival of Animals, Pines of Rome, or the Four Seasons? I would think a composer like yourself would appreciate some of those classics. To each his own I guess. I suppose except that the theme sets the tone for the show; music about sand would probably sound like crotch rot, lmao. Thanks, but you have to understand there is a difference between liking and appreciating. I can see that they're well written and impressive works, but at the same time I just don't have a taste for them. Although, I do like Winter in the Four Seasons. And I can enjoy them at certain times, mostly when I'm want to just relax, which is not often really- I usually like to be at least a little on edge. I prefer things like Pictures at an Exhibition (Orchestrated, preferablly), Tocatta & Fugue in d minor, The Rite of Spring, the Firebird, Shokatovich's opus 110a, The Art of Fugue, The Planets, and things of that sort. But yeah, I can enjoy other stuff too, I just don't neccasarily love them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actualgirltrombone Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Going back to what was said before, I personally find really awesome high school groups more impressive because they don't get to pick from the best of the best. They get whatever students come to their school, and somehow get to be a really good group. Corps, on the other hand, can pick and choose the people with good attitudes, good technique, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortisimo Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Sure; but I would rather watch/listen to the corps. You know, because they are better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euro_euph06 Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Going back to what was said before, I personally find really awesome high school groups more impressive because they don't get to pick from the best of the best. They get whatever students come to their school, and somehow get to be a really good group. Corps, on the other hand, can pick and choose the people with good attitudes, good technique, etc. Corps don't "pick" what people show up to their camps!!! People who think they have what it takes goes to the camps and showcase their stuff. They either are asked to attend the next camp or improve some items for the next year. And I know some woodwind players who went to Top 12 Div. 1 corps on mallets or DM. It just takes hard work. In high school, some people tend to slack just because they dont give a darn. People choose to have good attitudes, technique, work ethic, etc...... I have to agree with Moose on this one.....Birds themselves produce music that can be pretty (unless they are crows--yuckee!!!). Hence they influence composer and other influental people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortisimo Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 What of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euro_euph06 Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 What of it? What of it?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortisimo Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 What of itt??? (You might notice I added yet another question mark as well as another 't') Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euro_euph06 Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 What? Of? It?? (hee-hee lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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