Just a few thoughts...Parents, fans, students, judges...

[just_a_texas_girl]

I took some time the last few days reading the majority of posts on these and music for all boards in regard to both BOA SA and UIL State (5A). I also had the amazing opportunity to hear a director address his students the night of UIL State (5A) and his words, insightful, honest and inspiring are worth hearing. I also attended both contests and have some observations.

 

It pains me to see students and parents come here or any other forum and trash talk about what they deem as unfair adjudication and then they proceed to say how their particular band was ripped off or what ever term they care to use. Now without getting personal, I can assure you there are plenty of programs that have that ability to feel that way and of course there have been many questionable scores given in the history of everything from UIL to BOA to what ever contest you want to talk about. But as parents, what we have to respect and what we have to teach our children to respect, is the process. As parents, it is our job to support our children in these programs. It is not our job to judge, complain or bicker about what is wrong with the world known as marching band. By standing behind our kids and the programs these kids are in, we are indirectly agreeing to support the outcome, no matter what that may be. Do we want our kids to be part of a winning program? Well, of course, but I think the issue here is what constitutes a winning program? Is it the trophy case? How many all-state students a program has? What is it? For me a winning program produces kids that have the potential for great leadership, learn the value of persistence, understand that life is never black and white and understand that the goal here, is music education.

 

It is hurtful as a parent to be in the stands and know that your kid and their program has worked so hard to overcome adversity and changes and yet those are things that are not judged. I truly believe that 90% of the time, if a director is doing his or her job, the majority of disappointment when a band does not make finals, or does not get a medal or the place they feel they should have gotten, is within the parents, not the students. Parents do not have the luxury of hearing everyday what the goal of the program is (and of course every program is different) and what constitutes success. As I stood and watched the director I mentioned in paragraph one, address his students, I was taken back by the pride this one individual had for the 200 in front of him. They knew he was proud. The only pieces of disappointment in the room where in the hearts of the parents. (more on that later) He asked them if they were proud of what they displayed at State today, and every student raised their hand. He held up the judges sheets and said "this" is something that we do not control. That you never know if you are going to get 5 old men or if it will be handful of progressive types. That the numbers are just that, numbers. They do not define a program. These kids were happy. The outcome may not have been what they were dreaming for, but they knew that had knocked it out of the dome, it is just that the judges didn't seem to catch it. And it was, what it was. No regrets.

 

Now, parents have been reading in parenting magazines since the early 90's that you have to raise a winning kid, and anything else is just....well....not acceptable. You have to get a tutor, go to gymboree, make your kid an NFL hopeful or the next Olympian. The headlines say if you don't raise a winner then you are a bad parent. But here is the problem. What defines winner? No one ever tells you that part. You ASSUME that means you have to be number 1. Because being number 1 is definable. But is it better to be number X (anything other #1) knowing your program is climbing the ladder? Is that a win? Is winning a better score than last year? Are you a loser if the score is worse? The problem with the majority of forum crying is the parents. Because they have drilled into kids that number one is the only number to desire. Thank goodness for directors that have their heads on straight (and I am sure there are some that don't, but that is another thread) I have never been so proud to be apart of program than I was Tuesday night. Where we number one?...no. Did we make finals?....no. Did we have a group of kids with so much heart and love for music that their individual pride could split you wide open...YES!

 

Now that is winning.

Edited November 4, 2010 by just_a_texas_girl

[Xenon]

Absolutely beautiful.

[longhornsax]

*applause*

[Bandlover]

Thank You

[Bandlover]

I will have to say that I have seen more band parents get into it with each other that I have with football parents. It is ok to think that the band you support was the best and should have won but that does not mean you should trash the judges pick. The same thing happened after last years state contest, parents of bands who felt they should have won began talking trash in forums about the judges pick but all the kids did was shake each others hands and talk about how much fun they had.

[drum_mom]

Well said.

[The Brass Messiah]

This is exactly correct.

[king_leonides]

Because they have drilled into kids that number one is the only number to desire. Thank goodness for directors that have their heads on straight (and I am sure there are some that don't, but that is another thread)

 

Should I start another thread, or respond here?

 

I myself marched in a program where winning wasn't optional. It really was the sole focus of the program. And the band director made it clear to ever freshman, who walked in the door on the first day of school. He kept a picture of Vince Lombardi on the wall, in the director's office, with famous caption "Winning isn't everything...It's the only thing." He also kept books on her shelf behind his desk, from Woody Hayes and Bobby Knight. And he patterned much of his leadership style after Lombardi, Hayes, and Knight.

 

And he ran an incredibly successful program. He won the Ohio state marching championship 8 times over his career. He won the National Cherry Festival 4 times, and he finished as high as second at Festival of States (the forerunner to BOA.) He transformed a small, Catholic, all-male high school band, with no tax dollars or community support, into a national powerhouse. He did it seemingly out of sheer determination and force of will; even his own administration didn't support him, most of the time.

 

I entered that program in 1979, and the message to me was very clear: this program is about winning. It isn't about giving a good, entertaining performance, or learning valuable life-lessons. It was about winning. And if you weren't with the program - you were out.

 

We lost a contest in the fall of 1980, finishing 3rd. We came into the band hall that evening, after the long ride home from Dayton. The director was, well, I will simfply put it this way - absolutely furious. Livid. Irate. I can remember portions of his tirade against us. He lambasted us, for embarrassing those who had gone before us. (If you've ever listened to the Buddy Rich bus tapes - well, look them up on Youtube. You will get a feel of what it was like, to be in that band hall, after a loss.)

 

We had a bounceback year in 1981, winning the Cherry Festival in Michigan. But the fall 1982 was another poor season for us, and he cancelled our trip to Festival of States in Florida. We ended our senior year on a real downer. But I understood the director's motivation: he didn't want us ruining our reputation, by putting on a bad show at nationals.

 

You see, with some people, winning really is everthing. And by winning, that means taking home the first place trophy.

 

===========================================================================

 

Fast forward 30 years - my son is marching now. Needless to say, he is in a very different environment at his school. The directors at Seven Lakes are trying to build a successful program, and have done well so far. They are not a championship caliber band yet - although they are trying to get there. But I do think the directors and staff there are emphacizing the learning experiences, more than the winning, as they try to get to the next level.

 

So I have seen my experiences - and I can compare them to those of my son. Which approach is best? That is a purely philosophical question, and honestly, even I am ambivalent about it now.

Edited November 5, 2010 by king_leonides

[Xenon]

In other words, your band director cared about his reputation more than teaching his students.

[Danpod]

Everybody loves to win. I love it. You love it. My 94 year old Grandmother loves it. However, how to be successful in this activity is very different than most extra-curricular activities.

 

The thing that marching students and band parents absolutely have to remember is that winning is in the hands of the judges, whether we like it or not. As a student, the only thing you can do is prepare and perform. As a parent, the only thing you can do is be your son or daughter's biggest fan, no matter the result.

[Joeyz]

Completely agree - A band program that values competitive success over self fulfillment is setting its members up for lots of disappointment

[alinktothepresent]

I loved reading this -- great writing, great message!

 

(If you've ever listened to the Buddy Rich bus tapes - well, look them up on Youtube. You will get a feel of what it was like, to be in that band hall, after a loss.)

 

^^ This, however is a little scary. I hope you were using the Buddy Rich tapes as a loose comparison. I've heard the tapes... not high school appropriate, to say the least!

[king_leonides]

In other words, your band director cared about his reputation more than teaching his students.

 

I don't even think it was that, Xenon. His philosophy of life was simple: the world is made up of two classes of people: winners and losers. So don't end up on the wrong side of that line. He wanted to teach the young men in his program to be winners, bottom line. He really felt like he was doing the best for us. So to him, losing was absolutely intolerable and unacceptable.

 

And to a large extent, he was right: many of the young men who went through that program turned out to be very successful in life. They have become businessmen, professionals, teachers, military officers - and even a few became professional musicans.

 

Now, is this the right way to educate young people? Is this right way to prepare young musicians? I don't know. I simply know this: my experiences, during those 4 years in that band program, were among the most important in my life. They molded me into the person I am today. It left an indelible impression on my mind and soul. I really feel that it had a bigger impact on me, than my home life.

[king_leonides]

^^ This, however is a little scary. I hope you were using the Buddy Rich tapes as a loose comparison. I've heard the tapes... not high school appropriate, to say the least!

 

You know, I listened again to the Buddy Rich bus tapes again tonight. Much of my old director's rants could have come directly from Buddy Rich....or vice versa. Mind you, our director could not use the same level of obscenities - it was a Catholic school, by the way. But the pure, outright anger was all there.

 

To quote some of of Rich's statements: "Where is you pride? Where is your professionalism? How dare you play that way? How dare you play that way for me? I expect 110 percent perfection each and every time!" Honestly, that could have been recorded in my band hall, circa October 1980.

 

(And to reiterate, I am not talking about the directors at Seven Lakes, where my son marches. I have spent plenty of nights in that band hall, and never heard anyting like that. I am talking about my experience 31 years ago. Seven Lakes didn't even exist then.)

Edited November 5, 2010 by king_leonides