Marcus 2010: Illuminaries

[mrwood69]

Your statement is somewhat valid, but the bit about "universalness" would have more validity if Texas bands hadn't been winning the Music Caption at Grand Nationals for like...what? 7 of the last 9 years? (just checked....yup. 7 out of 9. Lassiter won it in '02 & Carmel in '08....And L.D. Bell was leading the pack in Music by a landslide after Semis in '08, but their poor Finals run cost them the caption). You can argue between Marcus and Bell in Texas or LC and Avon in Indiana, but only in Texas can you make such a sweeping statement against the whole country.

 

Band is just better in Texas

[alinktothepresent]

Interesting conversation, and like TXredraider I don't have a dog in this fight as an Indiana band fan. I am really surprised that any fan could fault either Bell or Marcus for their performance as I think both are outstanding. I think they bring different strengths to the table, but the few times I have seen them they were great. I think the argument about marching versus music is universal as here in Indiana we have the same debate about Avon vs. Lawrence Central. One considered more musically inclined (LC) and one more visual (Avon), however both are great and I would not criticize either for their shows. When I've attended the Grand Nats in Indy I always see the Texas band fans supporting and cheering for each other, so I am surprised by the hate/love shown on this thread. Again no dog in this fight but I think you all should be proud of both bands, as they represent Texas admirably.

 

I completely agree! I've long since stopped worrying about which element (music or visual) is "more important." I think there's more value in just seeing/hearing each show as a stand-alone work of art.

 

Some shows focus more on one element -- that doesn't make the show "bad" or "lacking." And it certainly doesn't degrade an entire program because of it, as so many people seem to believe.

[Anthony V]

I wouldn't say that having a faster (if even a little bit dirtier) drill velocity will cost you more than a slower and cleaner one in most situations. Ultimately it boils down to the tendency of the judges, but pulling off impressive drill can gain you those lost points.

I suppose the chances of a judge favoring faster velocities/dirtier than slower velocities/cleaner would be greater in BOA than UIL, since BOA is based on "visual" scoring rather than strictly "marching".

 

On a general basis, I think that you can have extreme velocities and still have a stunning sound. iShow GN finals anyone?

[TxRaider13]

Texas...The only state where a miltary band can make state finals, A BOA champion can fall to a "non-BOA" style band, and where the top music colleges in the nation are..Gotta love Texas.. Now I have no idea who the heavy hitters are in any other state other than the big names like: Broken Arrow, Avon, LC, PCEP, Carmel, but I do know here, on any given night if your band is not perfect, you miss finals. If your band doesn't perform better than perfect, you miss a medal. The depth here is unlike any other state. Look at the top 15 from 4A and 5A state, plus toss Cedar Park and Connely in there and tell me thats not a deep, and difficult contest to make finals in. 5A alone is cut throat from top to bottom. Thats just the top 15, some areas are so deep that some fantastic programs miss out on going to the big stage to compete. Band is just better in Texas

Edited November 9, 2010 by TxRaider13

[dtexas4444]

How did I miss that. Both videos are from the same user. Thanks for posting that. I tear up watching Bell's closer every time. The theme music to the HBO Miniseries "The Pacific" definitely pulls on the heart strings.

 

You might tear up more with the new added ending. I still can't believe they are doing a 12 minute show. Well, part of that is going to be preshow to fit under the 11 min max rule at nationals. They sound a lot better - more dynamics, playing louder, and a lot more emotional.

Edited November 9, 2010 by dtexas4444

[skill]

Texas...The only state where a miltary band can make state finals, A BOA champion can fall to a "non-BOA" style band, and where the top music colleges in the nation are..Gotta love Texas.. Now I have no idea who the heavy hitters are in any other state other than the big names like: Broken Arrow, Avon, LC, PCEP, Carmel, but I do know here, on any given night if your band is not perfect, you miss finals. If your band doesn't perform better than perfect, you miss a medal. The depth here is unlike any other state. Look at the top 15 from 4A and 5A state, plus toss Cedar Park and Connely in there and tell me thats not a deep, and difficult contest to make finals in. 5A alone is cut throat from top to bottom. Thats just the top 15, some areas are so deep that some fantastic programs miss out on going to the big stage to compete. Band is just better in Texas

 

Well said!

[kingsmom]

You might tear up more with the new added ending. I still can't believe they are doing a 12 minute show. Well, part of that is going to be preshow to fit under the 11 min max rule at nationals. They sound a lot better - more dynamics, playing louder, and a lot more emotional.

 

For those of you in the DFW area that would like to see the "nationals" show live, L.D. Bell is having a community performance/band send off tonight (11/9) at 9:00pm at Pennington Field in Bedford, TX.

 

I just wanted to add that I have been watching the healthy competition between L.D. Bell and Marcus over the past five years and all I can say is that both bands are incredible at what they do. The Marcus band blows me away every year with their sound and cleanliness. Their shows are clever and bright. Bell's power and emotion always affects me and leaves me astounded at what these kids can achieve. Yes, they are different, but each are great at what they do best.

 

I think that both bands push each other to excel in all areas and have great respect for each other's talents and achievements. These past few years it has been Marcus and Bell, but the future is open and there are many wonderful bands in TX poised to take the lead at any time. This is what makes TX band so competitive and continually produces the best in the nation!

[NickRC]

Well I wish this topic didnt exist as clearly when it comes to Marcus, people are not afraid to speak their minds, and Im going to ask one thing, Is that fair to the students who worked so hard, and earned their accolades to feel disliked?

 

 

Unfortunately these students are victims of this war that has been set on programs such as Marcus. Its not for me to judge them soley on what I personally don't like in a marching show. That being said the people who put their time and soul into their show should be proud of what they accomplished no matter what the haters say.

Edited November 9, 2010 by NickRC

[NickRC]

Exactly. The judges are there to do a job - judge the MARCHING of the performers. Perhaps they might glace back for a moment or two - but they are far too professional to stay distracted long enough that it might make an actual score difference.

 

Well techincally speaking Music is more important that Marching atleast on the UIL marching Rubric, But thats beside the point I know when watching a show Its hard to get distracted by props long enough to miss the marching.

[Indianamarchingfan]

Texas...The only state where a miltary band can make state finals, A BOA champion can fall to a "non-BOA" style band, and where the top music colleges in the nation are..Gotta love Texas.. Now I have no idea who the heavy hitters are in any other state other than the big names like: Broken Arrow, Avon, LC, PCEP, Carmel, but I do know here, on any given night if your band is not perfect, you miss finals. If your band doesn't perform better than perfect, you miss a medal. The depth here is unlike any other state. Look at the top 15 from 4A and 5A state, plus toss Cedar Park and Connely in there and tell me thats not a deep, and difficult contest to make finals in. 5A alone is cut throat from top to bottom. Thats just the top 15, some areas are so deep that some fantastic programs miss out on going to the big stage to compete. Band is just better in Texas

 

I would agree that Texas likely has more depth of bands than does Indiana, the population of Texas is 4 times that of Indiana and it only makes sense. Like you I am not familiar with all of the "heavy hitters" in Texas as I am with those in Indiana. You can be sure however that just as it is difficult to get into the finals in Texas and as you said many great bands don't make it, the same holds true in Indiana. 10 bands made the finals in each class in Indiana and the largest bands (4A) often have some great bands who don't make the top ten. Personally I think Texas and Indiana are the two best states in the nation when discussing marching band, and I think the competition is good between the states. Of course I will be cheering for my Marching Black and Gold of Avon this Sat. but will be applauding all of the Texas bands as well, not to mention Broken Arrow, PCEP, Marian Catholic, they all deserve support and applause. So while I agree that yes their are MORE quality bands in Texas, I wouldn't necessarily say it's better. Best of luck to all, may the best band win.

[takigan]

So while I agree that yes their are MORE quality bands in Texas, I wouldn't necessarily say it's better. Best of luck to all, may the best band win.

 

"Better" is such a subjective term .

 

But on the matter of a state's holistic band programs, one thing I've noticed about Indiana bands is that the top 5 in the state (Avon, Central, Carmel, Center Grove and Homestead) are all insanely good, but the ability level starts dropping off really fast with each band after them. Castle got 10th at State in Indiana's largest, most competitive division (sort of like our Class 5A). Castle didn't even make BOA Semi-Finals last year. I could name 40 bands in Texas that are fully capable of making BOA Semi-Finals provided they competed in separate hypothetical scenarios rather than all at the same time (BOA Semi-Finals only accommodates a maximum of I think 34 or 35 bands anyway). So I'm basically saying there are 40 bands in Texas that are fully capable of breaking into the Indiana Top 10 by claiming that 10th spot.

 

Sorry if my post sounds hostile (I don't really mean for it to be if it does...and we appreciate users from other states just as much as our own)....but it's no less bias than one would expect than if you were a Republican posting in a forum for Democrats or vice versa :/. Go Texas!

 

Btw, just to show some Indiana love, I really enjoyed Avon's show last year as well as Carmel's (not so much LC's or Center Grove's, though I like some of the shows that both of them have done in the past). Homestead 1994 is also one of my favorite shows. I love Avon's encore standstill GN performance that's on Youtube, which I just saw recently. Such incredible energy!

[dtexas4444]

"Better" is such a subjective term .

 

But on the matter of a state's holistic band programs, one thing I've noticed about Indiana bands is that the top 5 in the state (Avon, Central, Carmel, Center Grove and Homestead) are all insanely good, but the ability level starts dropping off really fast with each band after them. Castle got 10th at State in Indiana's largest, most competitive division (sort of like our Class 5A). Castle didn't even make BOA Semi-Finals last year. I could name 40 bands in Texas that are fully capable of making BOA Semi-Finals provided they competed in separate hypothetical scenarios rather than all at the same time (BOA Semi-Finals only accommodates a maximum of I think 34 or 35 bands anyway). So I'm basically saying there are 40 bands in Texas that are fully capable of breaking into the Indiana Top 10 by claiming that 10th spot.

 

Sorry if my post sounds hostile (I don't really mean for it to be if it does...and we appreciate users from other states just as much as our own)....but it's no less bias than one would expect than if you were a Republican posting in a forum for Democrats or vice versa :/. Go Texas!

 

Btw, just to show some Indiana love, I really enjoyed Avon's show last year as well as Carmel's (not so much LC's or Center Grove's, though I like some of the shows that both of them have done in the past). Homestead 1994 is also one of my favorite shows. I love Avon's encore standstill GN performance that's on Youtube, which I just saw recently. Such incredible energy!

 

 

And imagine if Texas didn't have the 8 hour rule - like Indiana.

[ThaximusPrime]

You might tear up more with the new added ending. I still can't believe they are doing a 12 minute show. Well, part of that is going to be preshow to fit under the 11 min max rule at nationals. They sound a lot better - more dynamics, playing louder, and a lot more emotional.

 

New ending? Great...that definitely means I am going to have to pay for the Fan Network subscription so that I can watch Nationals live versus just waiting for the DVD. Van Matthews is always trying to perfect his show...and always changing drill or music, or both at the last minute. I was looking forward to crying again at this show, but not so soon. lol. Thanks for the info.

 

I really hate not being in Texas anymore, especially in the DFW area. In the evenings I run at Yorktown High School in Arlington, VA, and their band program is ridiculously small. A marching band that only has 65 members cannot successfully perform Stravinksy's Firebird Suite. Only Phantom Regiment could pull that off.

[Indianamarchingfan]

Sorry if my post sounds hostile (I don't really mean for it to be if it does...and we appreciate users from other states just as much as our own)....but it's no less bias than one would expect than if you were a Republican posting in a forum for Democrats or vice versa :/. Go Texas!

 

Btw, just to show some Indiana love, I really enjoyed Avon's show last year as well as Carmel's (not so much LC's or Center Grove's, though I like some of the shows that both of them have done in the past). Homestead 1994 is also one of my favorite shows. I love Avon's encore standstill GN performance that's on Youtube, which I just saw recently. Such incredible energy!

 

 

I didn't take your post as hostile at all. I thought you were just stating your opinion and I do agree again that Texas has a lot to be proud of with the number of quality bands. And of course I realize that you would naturally cheer for the Texas bands and support them. I do think the quality does drop some from bands such as Avon & Homestead to those finishing lower, but I think that hold true in Texas too, or why else would LD Bell and Marcus seem to dominate? Also Carmel doesn't even participate anymore in the ISSMA state finals contest (don't get me going on that!) anyway I do enjoy this site, and learning more about the Texas bands, it would be great someday to attend your UIL finals. Appreciate your comments on Avon, I think you will enjoy their show this year as well.

[takigan]

I do think the quality does drop some from bands such as Avon & Homestead to those finishing lower, but I think that hold true in Texas too, or why else would LD Bell and Marcus seem to dominate?

 

1. They don't always dominate. LD Bell lost to Hebron at Area, but regained their lead at State.

 

2. Look at the Composite Scores for the State finals: http://utdirect.utexas.edu/uilsmbc/lbw2_sc...;s_display_sw=R.

 

Marcus and LD Bell "dominate" as you say, and there's a drop right after them....but the remaining 8 finalists are all really close in score and the rankings are very subjective (just look at some of the differences in the judges' rankings, 3rd&9th for Coppell, 2nd&8th for Hebron, 3rd&7th for Bowie, 3rd&9th for the Woodlands). If the contest were held again, the 3rd-10th placements probably would have been entirely different. That's not indicative of a steep decline in ability.

 

Let me give you an example of what I'm getting at. I will rank the top 10 Texas bands and give them Ability ratings from 1 to 100 (100=Best) then do the same thing for the ISSMA results.

 

1. Marcus - 97

2. LD Bell - 95

3. Duncanville - 93

4. Bowie - 93

5. Coppell - 91

6. Hebron - 89

7. The Woodlands - 88

8. Berkner - 87

9. Spring - 85

10. Westlake - 82

 

1. Avon - 100

2. Lawrence Central - 94

3. Homestead - 92

4. Center Grove - 90

5. Lake Central - 85

6. Warren Central - 82

7. Lafayette-Jefferson -81

8. Ben Davis - 80

9. Penn - 74

10. Castle - 65

 

Do you see how I have Texas going from 97 to 82 and Avon from 100 to 65 in the same number of places? These numbers are relative too (Duncanville is a slightly better band than Homestead and Homestead is slightly better than Coppell). That's what I mean when I say the ability level drops very quickly in larger jumps once you get outside the top 4 in Indiana.

[Indianamarchingfan]

1. They don't always dominate. LD Bell lost to Hebron at Area, but regained their lead at State.

 

2. Look at the Composite Scores for the State finals: http://utdirect.utexas.edu/uilsmbc/lbw2_sc...;s_display_sw=R.

 

Marcus and LD Bell "dominate" as you say, and there's a drop right after them....but the remaining 8 finalists are all really close in score and the rankings are very subjective (just look at some of the differences in the judges' rankings, 3rd&9th for Coppell, 2nd&8th for Hebron, 3rd&7th for Bowie, 3rd&9th for the Woodlands). If the contest were held again, the 3rd-10th placements probably would have been entirely different. That's not indicative of a steep decline in ability.

 

Let me give you an example of what I'm getting at. I will rank the top 10 Texas bands and give them Ability ratings from 1 to 100 (100=Best) then do the same thing for the ISSMA results.

 

1. Marcus - 97

2. LD Bell - 95

3. Duncanville - 93

4. Bowie - 93

5. Coppell - 91

6. Hebron - 89

7. The Woodlands - 88

8. Berkner - 87

9. Spring - 85

10. Westlake - 82

 

1. Avon - 100

2. Lawrence Central - 94

3. Homestead - 92

4. Center Grove - 90

5. Lake Central - 85

6. Warren Central - 82

7. Lafayette-Jefferson -81

8. Ben Davis - 80

9. Penn - 74

10. Castle - 65

 

Do you see how I have Texas going from 97 to 82 and Avon from 100 to 65 in the same number of places? These numbers are relative too (Duncanville is a slightly better band than Homestead and Homestead is slightly better than Coppell). That's what I mean when I say the ability level drops very quickly in larger jumps once you get outside the top 4 in Indiana.

 

Well not quite sure how you arrived at the scores you listed above, but I can tell you their is NOT that much difference between 1st and 10th place at this years Indiana state contest. I do think that without a doubt Avon, Homestead and LC were a rank above, but they weren't as dominating as the scores you have listed below. Not sure how familiar you are with the ISSMA state contest this year, but there was MUCH talk about Castle and Penn's placement at 10th and 9th respectively. I certainly did not have either placed that low. Scores are scores they are subjective, and can be twisted or interpreted to fit anyone's viewpoint. I think you are greatly understanding how good some of the bands such as Castle are and have been in the past. They have on a few occasions been in the top 15 at nationals, so I don't think they are as lowly ranked as you seem to believe. Again opinions are opinions and I respect your's completely, and will agree to disagree on this topic. Really looking forward to seeing SFA as I see a lot of chat about them on this site and how they are preparing for Grand Nats. AND as much as we are discussing Texas and Indiana bands, neither should overlook other great bands as Broken Arrow, Tarpon Springs or one of those will be taking home the eagle.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Indianamarchingfan

[tvlr45m]

I am wondering with all of the thoughts from many of you - What constitutes the following:

 

Hard vs Easy Drills

Clean vs. Non Clean Drills

 

When I have watched both Bell and Marcus videos from State, it seems that they have dissimilar styles but definitely have very hard drills.

Watched Marcus practice many times and many of them are marching backwards/sideways, facing forward and playing at the same time and hitting marks being very difficult.

I have also watched them change tempo during a song and changing their size of steps while marching directions changing constantly and playing.

On the other hand, I have noticed watching their drills and you can always after watching several times find mistakes in the drill.

I have always been extremely supportive of all bands in Texas and the kids are all winners - yes, someone has to judge and someone has to determine who is the top bands. At the end of the day, they are all winners and no opinion on this board should ever change that.

Just seen many comments about their drills being easy while their music is what won it for them.

Edited December 14, 2010 by tvlr45m

[RedJoker25]

I am wondering with all of the thoughts from many of you - What constitutes the following:

 

Hard vs Easy Drills

Clean vs. Non Clean Drills

 

When I have watched both Bell and Marcus videos from State, it seems that they have dissimilar styles but definitely have very hard drills.

Watched Marcus practice many times and many of them are marching backwards/sideways, facing forward and playing at the same time and hitting marks being very difficult.

I have also watched them change tempo during a song and changing their size of steps while marching directions changing constantly and playing.

On the other hand, I have noticed watching their drills and you can always after watching several times find mistakes in the drill.

I have always been extremely supportive of all bands in Texas and the kids are all winners - yes, someone has to judge and someone has to determine who is the top bands. At the end of the day, they are all winners and no opinion on this board should ever change that.

Just seen many comments about their drills being easy while their music is what won it for them.

 

Most bands do march backwards and sideways while playing, though. Quite a few change tempo and step size as well. That's not enough to call drill easy or hard. Now, assuming there was a band that literally stopped marching and played, then stopped playing and marched, that would be a relatively easy show, not that drill alone couldn't be hard. In the end, it's not really how easy it actually is, it's how easy the band makes it look, which is what I define as clean. Meanwhile, music is weighted more (3 judges versus 2) which could really go either way. Good music scores can boost a band, while bad scores can drop it, no matter what their marching score is. The same could be said in reverse, but 11122 is better than 22211 in judges' scores, so music does have a stronger effect.

 

About your other comment..."watching several times". Judges only see it once and they may or may not be looking at the points where mistakes are occurring. What they see is what they judge. As long as the kids are satisfied with their performance, though, both collectively and individually, the opinions and mindsets of the five random judges shouldn't matter.

Edited December 14, 2010 by RedJoker25

[Drummantx]

Everybody is going to have different opinions on the show, some are going to like it, some aren't. Some are going to think it is challenging, some aren't. Some are going to blame it on the props and God knows what else. They are obviously "good" enough to win 3 straight state titles and multiple BOA events, because they design their shows to do well. Coming from a school in the Panhandle, I would give anything for our band to be that good, sorry, but this is just a stupid thread. I for one LOVED this show, they executed and designed a show good enough to win state and The San Antonio Super Regional, if that's not good, I don't know what the heck is.

[Bsax61]

I was actually a part of the Marcus Band, and I never felt like we were better than any other band, especially L.D. Bell. We were taught, and conditioned from the beginning to always be kind, accepting, and appreciative of other bands. My favorite part about band

just to clarify: We use props to bring a sense of meaning, an "image" to our shows, for us actually marching it. We also use props to give those less able to march a spot in every show. I pushed a prop my freshman year, and I can't say I was embarrassed by it.

Being in college band at Unt

[Bsax61]

I got to meet a mix of all bands around the country, and learned that it didn't matter what your show was, as long as you were having fun, and entertained your audience