Tell me more about what makes a show a good show/director strategies

[MoMoneyMoProplems]

I'm a relatively new band parent.  My kid's band had a great run last year and I learned a lot.  I did deep dives into how judges score performances, the differences between BoA and UIL etc.  I know what *I* like, and I'm curious to understand what makes a show "good" and if there are different strategies directors employ to woo judges. I saw A LOT of great marching bands last year and so far this year. I played music as a kid, but I never marched.  

To be clear, I am not dogging on any of these bands and I am not trying to insinuate anyone is overrated, but I want to "get it."  I know these kids don't get any say in their show design and they just march the drill and play the music they're given and they are all hardworking musicians and athletes.  

1.  Something I noticed last year, and I've seen some of this year so far is that some larger bands seem to really "clutter" the field with props and other things.  (i.e. Bowie's show this year, Dripping Springs last year, the school with the Papyrus show last year, Leander last year with the bus).  Hopefully that illustrates what I am talking about.  Is credit given by judges for how much space a band takes up on the field?  

2. Do big bands automatically have an advantage?  Vandegrift was amazing last year, don't get me wrong, but with all of the hype I thought I'd be completely blown out of the water...and I was, they were loud and they sounded great...but I didn't think their show was particularly special...but again, I don't know exactly what makes a show "special."

3.  Themes - so obviously the goal is to tell a story, but some of the themes are just strange to me.  See Papyrus noted above.  It was the "story of paper." The band sounded great, the visuals were nice, but I wasn't necessarily entertained by the "story."  Paper?  On the other hand Hendrickson's show was energetic and entertaining and sounded great, but there didn't seem to be a cohesive story/theme. It also fell flat for me.  Is this just the result of different styles and preferences?  

4.  Props - so what I was told by experienced band parents last year was that it is all about props, even more so with BoA.  Obviously wealthier programs can afford more props.  How much of a factor is this REALLY?  I've noticed some pretty good bands in Austin don't have props at all this year (Austin High, LASA) and it doesn't seem like they plan to add them.  Those schools don't have the biggest budgets or anything, but they can probably swing some props.  Don't get me wrong, their shows are entertaining...I just wonder if that is a tactical thing.  Is there a move away from over the top props?

5.  I've gathered that bands pay consultants or whatever to put together drills and music for them.  Do all schools do this?  How much does it typically cost?  Are there any bands that are great and known for doing this "in house"?

Anyway, I hope I am not offending anyone - I just want to understand the marching band world!


 

 

[stillInAustin]

9 hours ago, MoMoneyMoProplems said:

1.  Something I noticed last year, and I've seen some of this year so far is that some larger bands seem to really "clutter" the field with props and other things.  (i.e. Bowie's show this year, Dripping Springs last year, the school with the Papyrus show last year, Leander last year with the bus).  Hopefully that illustrates what I am talking about.  Is credit given by judges for how much space a band takes up on the field? 

Well, for UIL, here's the list of what they are supposed to be looking for at UIL Region: https://www.uiltexas.org/files/music/Region_Marching_Adjudication_Sheets.pdf

UIL says props are not scored: https://www.uiltexas.org/files/music/Marching_Band_Props.pdf. I don't know BOA rules, they may be different.

As I was pushing props around one evening, I asked a director why we have props.  The answer was that they help create a focus on the marching area, they help to emphasize the theme, they can be used to feature soloists, and they are a good place to stash stuff you use during the show.

9 hours ago, MoMoneyMoProplems said:

2. Do big bands automatically have an advantage?  Vandegrift was amazing last year, don't get me wrong, but with all of the hype I thought I'd be completely blown out of the water...and I was, they were loud and they sounded great...but I didn't think their show was particularly special...but again, I don't know exactly what makes a show "special."

At UIL Region, the goal is to get a 1 and move on to Area. At that level I don't think size matters.

I looked at some results from 6A area and I think there size does matter.    If you look at the schools that advanced to state, they were mostly from the top half of the schools if you rank them by size.  Other classifications may be different, but I think that there is an advantage at area and state to being at the top of your classification in size.

Obviously, bigger bands have other advantages.  Your boosters have more band parents to raise money.  You are more likely to find a parent with special skills, like website or merchandise design, or accounting skills, or lots of other skills that benefit the band.

Some band programs, especially pre-COVID, had groups of primary marchers and groups of alternates that would fill in as needed.  Bands with larger "spare" sections can stash weaker marchers or players in the alternative group and have more folks to fill in if someone fails academically.  Post-COVID I have seen bands shrink, especially bands with larger economically disadvantaged populations.  Smaller groups need everyone out there just to get some size.

So it helps to be big and honestly it helps to be in a wealthier area, to get donations for the stuff that the district will not cover.  You don't want it to be so wealthy that the kids are spending August in the south of France, but you want it to be wealthy enough to fund the program and still have the kids there for summer band.  Bigger high schools in moderately well-off suburbs have an advantage, in my opinion.
 

9 hours ago, MoMoneyMoProplems said:

3.  Themes - so obviously the goal is to tell a story, but some of the themes are just strange to me.  See Papyrus noted above.  It was the "story of paper." The band sounded great, the visuals were nice, but I wasn't necessarily entertained by the "story."  Paper?  On the other hand Hendrickson's show was energetic and entertaining and sounded great, but there didn't seem to be a cohesive story/theme. It also fell flat for me.  Is this just the result of different styles and preferences? 

Everyone's a critic.  🙂  I'm not sure how its done everywhere, but I think directors usually come up with show ideas.  Maybe they design a hit, or maybe not.  They are trying to do something that hasn't been done before, or at least hasn't been done to death.  They are trying to show the judges something new.

The same thing happens at drum corps shows.  Sometimes the theme is entertaining and sometimes you wonder what you just saw.

9 hours ago, MoMoneyMoProplems said:

4.  Props - so what I was told by experienced band parents last year was that it is all about props, even more so with BoA.  Obviously wealthier programs can afford more props.  How much of a factor is this REALLY?  I've noticed some pretty good bands in Austin don't have props at all this year (Austin High, LASA) and it doesn't seem like they plan to add them.  Those schools don't have the biggest budgets or anything, but they can probably swing some props.  Don't get me wrong, their shows are entertaining...I just wonder if that is a tactical thing.  Is there a move away from over the top props?

Hey man, Austin High may yet have props, the year is not over. 🙂 Props are what the director wants and what they can convince the parents to finance, buy, build, load, unload, load, unload, load, unload ... and move.  Sometimes they get added early, sometimes later in the year.  If you are new to band, join your band parents' prop crew.  It's a lot of fun, you'll meet some people, and whoever is in charge of your props will be grateful to have a regular.

This year is a little weird because bands are having trouble transporting equipment to events.  Some districts own and some rent the box trucks and tractors (the cabs that pull the band trailers).  Austin ISD is a "rent it" district.  I think Hays ISD owns their stuff -- I have seen their tractors with logos.  Because of the pandemic, there is a shortage of tractors and box trucks available to rent, and some schools are scrambling to find transportation.

So bands may be traveling a little light this year because trucks and tractors are just not available.

9 hours ago, MoMoneyMoProplems said:

5.  I've gathered that bands pay consultants or whatever to put together drills and music for them.  Do all schools do this?  How much does it typically cost?  Are there any bands that are great and known for doing this "in house"?

All schools do not do this.  If a band can raise the money to have custom drill and music design, they have it.  If they can't, they usually don't.  The school district generally does not fund it.  There is a whole ecosystem of drill designers, music composers, prop builders, color guard uniform makers, band trailer manufacturers, and so on behind the band programs you see on the field.

I would guess that most of the competative corps-style bands farm out their drill and music design.  During the time that the show is being designed, directors are deep into their concert UIL season and they don't have time to write a marching show.

There is a group of military-style high school bands in East Texas that perform classic cross-field shows while playing ... marches.  Crazy for a marching band to play marches but hey.  It's possible that the directors at those schools are doing their own drill design.  I don't know for certain.

[MikeKyu]

On 9/21/2022 at 4:13 PM, MoMoneyMoProplems said:

I'm a relatively new band parent.  My kid's band had a great run last year and I learned a lot.  I did deep dives into how judges score performances, the differences between BoA and UIL etc.  I know what *I* like, and I'm curious to understand what makes a show "good" and if there are different strategies directors employ to woo judges. I saw A LOT of great marching bands last year and so far this year. I played music as a kid, but I never marched.  

To be clear, I am not dogging on any of these bands and I am not trying to insinuate anyone is overrated, but I want to "get it."  I know these kids don't get any say in their show design and they just march the drill and play the music they're given and they are all hardworking musicians and athletes.  

1.  Something I noticed last year, and I've seen some of this year so far is that some larger bands seem to really "clutter" the field with props and other things.  (i.e. Bowie's show this year, Dripping Springs last year, the school with the Papyrus show last year, Leander last year with the bus).  Hopefully that illustrates what I am talking about.  Is credit given by judges for how much space a band takes up on the field?  

2. Do big bands automatically have an advantage?  Vandegrift was amazing last year, don't get me wrong, but with all of the hype I thought I'd be completely blown out of the water...and I was, they were loud and they sounded great...but I didn't think their show was particularly special...but again, I don't know exactly what makes a show "special."

3.  Themes - so obviously the goal is to tell a story, but some of the themes are just strange to me.  See Papyrus noted above.  It was the "story of paper." The band sounded great, the visuals were nice, but I wasn't necessarily entertained by the "story."  Paper?  On the other hand Hendrickson's show was energetic and entertaining and sounded great, but there didn't seem to be a cohesive story/theme. It also fell flat for me.  Is this just the result of different styles and preferences?  

4.  Props - so what I was told by experienced band parents last year was that it is all about props, even more so with BoA.  Obviously wealthier programs can afford more props.  How much of a factor is this REALLY?  I've noticed some pretty good bands in Austin don't have props at all this year (Austin High, LASA) and it doesn't seem like they plan to add them.  Those schools don't have the biggest budgets or anything, but they can probably swing some props.  Don't get me wrong, their shows are entertaining...I just wonder if that is a tactical thing.  Is there a move away from over the top props?

5.  I've gathered that bands pay consultants or whatever to put together drills and music for them.  Do all schools do this?  How much does it typically cost?  Are there any bands that are great and known for doing this "in house"?

Anyway, I hope I am not offending anyone - I just want to understand the marching band world!
 

Welcome to competitive marching band family. We are highly opinionated and mostly welcoming (you'll notice certain fans are really only fans of the band their kid is in). 

1. Space taken up on the field is not considered as a judging criteria. Artistically moving the band around the "clutter" is considered and most of those points go into General Effect. 
 
2. Big bands do have an advantage. There's something to be said for the clean interpretation and execution of directing 180 musicians vs 40. Having a balanced sound is difficult to achieve. The big band's student do not need to push as hard individually leading to clearer and more balanced performances. 

3. Story is feeds into the General effect score but is very low in the consideration. Papyrus was a beautiful show. It wasn't about paper. It was a love story transmitted through a single medium. 

4. Props: Not scored but they feed into the general effect of the the performance. If you can use them wisely and impactfully in multiple areas of a show they will help the score. Bands like Cedar Park were still competitive in BOA and UIL with very little props over the last 2 seasons. 

5. Consultants: Most bands use consultants for design, arrangement, and composition. There's an art to getting a group of strangers to work together on your vision. I have seen between $1.5k and $20k being spent for individual consultants. The bigger bands have budgets that would make a large small business sweat. 

Again, welcome to the world of competitive marching band. I've been involved for over 30 year now and each year is a wonderful adventure. Fortunately my wife has also taken up my appreciation for the sport with an appreciation of her own. 

[LeanderMomma]

One thing to note regarding props is that Ronald Reagan rarely uses them and is typically one of the top scoring bands in the state and the country. Props do however help tell a story (which is exactly what Leander’s VW bus and old timey billboards were useful for last year), but they are absolutely not necessary to scoring well in BOA or UIL. 

[bchorn]

I'll give you one very simple but blunt answer.

The key that makes a good marching band show is money.  The more money a booster program can raise...and the more money a school district can give to its band programs, the more successful the marching band show.

High quality marching shows have...a custom drill written to commissioned music...that tells a theme created by a creative director.   Props cost money to design and build. Big programs have "techs" that give band directors extra sets of eyes and ears during practice.  Successful marching bands travel more and further...which costs money.  

And the more students in the band, the cheaper all these costs become at the parent level.  So a 1A band paying $300 a student will not get as much of marching band show as 6A band paying $300 a student.  And because the 6A schools tend to be in wealthier neighborhoods, the 6A bands can get away with asking for $600, $800, or even $1000 a student.  So yeah, money plays a huge role into how successful a marching band show is.

[peshbandkid]

On 9/21/2022 at 4:13 PM, MoMoneyMoProplems said:

1.  Something I noticed last year, and I've seen some of this year so far is that some larger bands seem to really "clutter" the field with props and other things.  (i.e. Bowie's show this year, Dripping Springs last year, the school with the Papyrus show last year, Leander last year with the bus).  Hopefully that illustrates what I am talking about.  Is credit given by judges for how much space a band takes up on the field?  

 

On 9/21/2022 at 4:13 PM, MoMoneyMoProplems said:

4.  Props - so what I was told by experienced band parents last year was that it is all about props, even more so with BoA.  Obviously wealthier programs can afford more props.  How much of a factor is this REALLY?  I've noticed some pretty good bands in Austin don't have props at all this year (Austin High, LASA) and it doesn't seem like they plan to add them.  Those schools don't have the biggest budgets or anything, but they can probably swing some props.  Don't get me wrong, their shows are entertaining...I just wonder if that is a tactical thing.  Is there a move away from over the top props?

When it comes to props, some schools have them and can integrate them very well into the show for it to work, but they aren't a necessity for any program. My freshman year, we had a bunch of zig-zag props and tarps while my senior year was only a few rolling stands. Ronald Reagan has been an incredibly successful band for nearly 20 years without using a lot of props at all. As far as scoring is concerned, only BOA will be concerned with props if they enhance the General Effect of a show, but not by a significant enough amount to penalize non-propped schools

 

On 9/21/2022 at 4:13 PM, MoMoneyMoProplems said:

Themes - so obviously the goal is to tell a story, but some of the themes are just strange to me.  See Papyrus noted above.  It was the "story of paper." The band sounded great, the visuals were nice, but I wasn't necessarily entertained by the "story."  Paper?  On the other hand Hendrickson's show was energetic and entertaining and sounded great, but there didn't seem to be a cohesive story/theme. It also fell flat for me.  Is this just the result of different styles and preferences? 

Themes always come down to personal preference and different band styles. Marcus has forever been a band that plays classical music and has more "contemporary" themes, while CTJ has been known to push the standard and really experiment with new things. 

On 9/21/2022 at 4:13 PM, MoMoneyMoProplems said:

Do big bands automatically have an advantage?  Vandegrift was amazing last year, don't get me wrong, but with all of the hype I thought I'd be completely blown out of the water...and I was, they were loud and they sounded great...but I didn't think their show was particularly special...but again, I don't know exactly what makes a show "special."

In a way, yes and no. Bigger bands mean there's a higher likelihood of a parent being skilled in craftmanship and you could lower and fees across all students as well. However, bigger bands don't necessarily mean a better band. The best example I can think of is with Allen High School (mostly because I've competed agaisnt them.) Their band is easily bigger than any other in the state, however their size limits them from having more complex drill. Furthermore, friends I have in the band say that not everyone in band plays at the same time since tuning and balancing 50 people in just clarinets is much too difficult a task. Cedar Ridge is the best example of a smaller band (in 6A terms) that is very good in the state. Size in band can only make so much of a difference. The real separation is the performance level of the students and how much they put into the show.

 

On 9/21/2022 at 4:13 PM, MoMoneyMoProplems said:

5.  I've gathered that bands pay consultants or whatever to put together drills and music for them.  Do all schools do this?  How much does it typically cost?  Are there any bands that are great and known for doing this "in house"?

Our band has had a drill and music arranger during my high school career (except for COVID) . Our directors never told us the costs, but i would assume anywhere from 1-2.5k depending on size, style, time, etc.

[MoMoneyMoProplems]

On 9/24/2022 at 1:44 AM, MikeKyu said:

3. Story is feeds into the General effect score but is very low in the consideration. Papyrus was a beautiful show. It wasn't about paper. It was a love story transmitted through a single medium. 

 

I get it was about more than paper, but I guess it felt corny or overwrought or something. Idk. At a competition last week I didn't realize that I was sitting in front of the judges.  I almost turned around to shush them for talking during the show and then I realized who they were and what they were doing.  That would have been embarrassing!  Anyway, I joked with another band parent that they should add an unscored category/commentary -the "Random Band Parent with No Experience and Lots of Opinions" judge.  How many directors would bother to listen to that commentary?

[MoMoneyMoProplems]

Thanks for the feedback everyone!  I was worried I might get slammed for being critical. 

Another question...one of my kids' bands have several people out sick this week, some taking SAT during the prelim performance, or I suppose some may have been intelligible due to grades.  The holes are obvious, but this is bound to happen.  If a band has a couple kids missing, can that affect the scoring or are the judges more likely to think, hey, they must have a sick member?

Speaking of eligibility.  At my kids' schools they are on 9week grading cycles.  UIL grade checks are at the 6 week mark.  Since most competitions are not UIL, do most bands let kids who fail still march in non-UIL events?  A potential problem I see with UIL checking eligibility at 6 weeks for schools on 9 week grading cycles is teachers not posting grades in a timely manner...or kids with IEPs and 504s who have extended time for assignments.  Unfortunately, lots of teachers don't grade assignments until weeks after the are submitted and they sit in a gradebook as a 0. This may be a unique problem to my school district.  It's a mess, the grading software system is the worst, and teachers are overwhelmed. 

[stix]

1 hour ago, MoMoneyMoProplems said:

Thanks for the feedback everyone!  I was worried I might get slammed for being critical. 

Another question...one of my kids' bands have several people out sick this week, some taking SAT during the prelim performance, or I suppose some may have been intelligible due to grades.  The holes are obvious, but this is bound to happen.  If a band has a couple kids missing, can that affect the scoring or are the judges more likely to think, hey, they must have a sick member?

Speaking of eligibility.  At my kids' schools they are on 9week grading cycles.  UIL grade checks are at the 6 week mark.  Since most competitions are not UIL, do most bands let kids who fail still march in non-UIL events?  A potential problem I see with UIL checking eligibility at 6 weeks for schools on 9 week grading cycles is teachers not posting grades in a timely manner...or kids with IEPs and 504s who have extended time for assignments.  Unfortunately, lots of teachers don't grade assignments until weeks after the are submitted and they sit in a gradebook as a 0. This may be a unique problem to my school district.  It's a mess, the grading software system is the worst, and teachers are overwhelmed. 

If a kid is failing at a grading checkpoint it makes them ineligible for any school sanctioned extra curricular activities regardless of it being UIL or not.   
 

Every band has to match holes at some point,     due to any number of reasons, grade point check, sickness, etc.   The judges do not count off for holes due to absent band members.