UIL Area B 2022

[Dallas Hobbs]

24 minutes ago, Vewer said:

Thoughts on Coppell and Keller?

Coppell always performs pristinely and is a lock for state finals for me. Keller always bring that BIG Texas band sound wherever they go, I think they’re a lock for finals as well. 

[bancl]

Coppell was amazing!  Such a fantastic band.

Keller was much better in prelims than finals I thought.  They were better at DMI the week before IMO as well.  They had the amazing misfortune of having to go first in prelims AND finals.  I would imagine that with a better run and later in the show that their placement would have been higher given how close the scores ended up being, but who knows.

 

 

[BandDad4]

21 minutes ago, Dallas Hobbs said:

Coppell always performs pristinely and is a lock for state finals for me. Keller always bring that BIG Texas band sound wherever they go, I think they’re a lock for finals as well. 

TC has been chasing Keller for some time, they have a chance for finals I think after this past weekend.

[RandomBandGuy23]

Coppell was stunning! Their ensemble sound is very dark and sonorous with great balance and clarity between all of the instruments. Having listened to both, it reminds a lot of Marcus’ sound but if you were to make it sound a bit more brilliant and a bit less reserved. Visual cleanliness was also very good and was leaps and bounds ahead of their last showing at BOA Dallas. I’d personally see them as locks for state finals with a very solid chance at making the top half.

Keller was also very, very good. While the other state advancing bands were absolutely wonderful in their own right, I personally had Keller getting second and was a little surprised to see them get fourth.

[cjm715]

41 minutes ago, BandDad4 said:

TC has been chasing Keller for some time, they have a chance for finals I think after this past weekend.

I think so as well. TC was ahead of keller in prelims and finals so I think it would be safe to say that TC will stay above keller in terms of uil, that is unless keller gets stupid clean in the span of just this week. Their show might not have nearly the amount of musical content that keller’s has but they’re playing the snot out of it and they sound gooooooood.

[josephbandfan]

Coppell was fantastic on all fronts. While I'm not crazy about the show, they really were the clear winner. I believe their rifle line alone was bigger than all of Keller's guard this year 😩

I saw recordings of Keller's halftime on Thursday and their prelims run, and their finals run was definitely the least solid. A couple of somewhat major blunders, musically and visually, that had me a little worried about how they'd place. That combined with performing first,  I really couldn't argue against their placement. Just happy they could advance and get another opportunity to give their best. And each week, I have noticed changes in either the drill, visuals, music, soloist, and guard which I love because they are constantly trying to improve their show, even if it means they aren't as clean at each competition.

 

[josephbandfan]

I would be so proud if both TC and Keller were in state finals.

[1998-2018]

13 hours ago, Gehrig4 said:

I’m saying that name recognition, similarly to gymnastics and ice skating in the Olympics clearly provides scaffolding for schools’ programs in competitions.     It’s difficult to crack and it’s difficult to fall out.    I’m not saying it can’t be done - nor am I saying it’s unfair- but I AM saying that listing rising schools’ achievements- however banal to you, is indeed meaningful and an important metric.  

That’s a bridge too far for me. Top programs are not propped up by the “scaffolding” of their prior achievements or reputation.

This is an extremely complex activity and excellence and judging is not always clearly understood by the crowd in the stands. However, it is earned and then demonstrated repeatedly, or not. It’s definitely difficult to attain, but once achieved, excellence also typically has a momentum that is not easily lost. But it has nothing to do with reputation. For example, an excellent program must get their freshman up to the level the other students have already achieved. Additionally the program has already cracked the code and established the environment necessary to accomplish this year after year. In contrast, an up and coming program may need to increase the performance level of many more students across the classes and is also still working to establish an environment that consistently produces excellence. This is what makes it so difficult to break into the next level. Not reputation “scaffolding”.

 I will agree the Judges know these programs, but I can assure you they have no respect for reputation once the actual performance and judging begins. Examples abound in the relatively recent history of both Area B (including this year) and the SMBC.

I’d like to be more specific but naming programs that may have come up short (past or present) can unpleasantly fire up forum participants so this is where I bow out and respectfully agree to disagree.

In closing I will say I suspect many people will find the process less frustrating if they embrace this explanation and let go of the belief that “It’s always the same bands…” due to anything other than just that day’s performance. It can make the long journey to sustained excellence more understandable and satisfying.

[1998-2018]

7 hours ago, RandomBandGuy23 said:

Keller was also very, very good. While the other state advancing bands were absolutely wonderful in their own right, I personally had Keller getting second and was a little surprised to see them get fourth.

Agreed. But they have been doing this dance with Waxahachie for several years now and after breaking through last year, Timber Creek has been playing with new found confidence this year. There is no longer anything tentative about their performances and it has made a huge difference.

I look forward to seeing all three in Finals at the SMBC. Yeah, Coppell too, so that makes four.

[averagebandnerd]

15 hours ago, cjm715 said:

I think so as well. TC was ahead of keller in prelims and finals so I think it would be safe to say that TC will stay above keller in terms of uil, that is unless keller gets stupid clean in the span of just this week. Their show might not have nearly the amount of musical content that keller’s has but they’re playing the snot out of it and they sound gooooooood.

Just like Vista Ridge and Vandegrift since 2018...

[BandDad4]

I felt really bad for Keller Central. I always wondered what causes a band to fall from prelims like that. We saw it last year with Duncanville. Judging changes? Sloppy finals? Smaller group of bands lends itself to problems to stand out?

[JWork]

17 hours ago, BandDad4 said:

TC has been chasing Keller for some time, they have a chance for finals I think after this past weekend.

On the state schedule it says they go after CTJ, I’m not too educated on this but do you think going after such a talented band will hinder their chances for finals? I also believe keller will clean up rather well this week and will be able to push into finals, hopefully TC too.

[Dallas Hobbs]

52 minutes ago, bandboi said:

On the state schedule it says they go after CTJ, I’m not too educated on this but do you think going after such a talented band will hinder their chances for finals? I also believe keller will clean up rather well this week and will be able to push into finals, hopefully TC too.

More than likely if TC turns out with a strong enough performance then who they perform after won’t make a difference. 

[Vewer]

With most Bands having great years so far, I'm wondering what y'all think state finals will look like placement-wise. Can't wait to see some new names.

[Dallas Hobbs]

8 hours ago, BandDad4 said:

I felt really bad for Keller Central. I always wondered what causes a band to fall from prelims like that. We saw it last year with Duncanville. Judging changes? Sloppy finals? Smaller group of bands lends itself to problems to stand out?

So one of the judges, J. Whorton, had KC 2nd in music in prelims, but then 7th in finals. Conversely that same music judge had LD Bell 11th in music in prelims, then 3rd in finals. The Judges just had a different opinion of the bands in finals than prelims. 
 

My hypothesis for this occurrence is that the strengths of KC’s performance stood out better compared with the prelims bands better than it did with the finals band, while the opposite was true for Bell. And you could say the limitations/imperfections of both bands’ performances hindered them more in the round that they placed lower in. 

[josephbandfan]

Fun fact: On this day 23 years ago was the 4A (2nd largest classification at the time) state marching contest where Coppell placed first and Keller placed 2nd. Great to see them fighting strong all these years later with some ups and downs along the way. Fossil Ridge also placed 4th! Only a couple years after opening. Keller Central and Timber Creek didn’t exist yet. 
 

November 1st is also officially Keller High School Marching Band Day in the City of Keller. 
 

 

[1998-2018]

2 hours ago, josephbandfan said:

Fun fact: On this day 23 years ago was the 4A (2nd largest classification at the time) state marching contest where Coppell placed first and Keller placed 2nd. Great to see them fighting strong all these years later with some ups and downs along the way. Fossil Ridge also placed 4th! Only a couple years after opening. Keller Central and Timber Creek didn’t exist yet. 
 

November 1st is also officially Keller High School Marching Band Day in the City of Keller. 
 

 

That day in 1999 Keller was the second band to take the field. At 7:15 am they set the high bar for preliminary competition and finished first. (So much for early runs being a problem.) I don’t remember Coppell’s preliminary performance time but I do remember they finished seventh in preliminary competition. Southlake Carrol, Fossil Ridge, and Colleyville Heritage were all in the mix. If I remember correctly, Grapevine was too. After an excruciating delay while the judges looked up the rules for breaking a three way tie in the middle of the pack the Finals announcements could begin. When they announced third place and Coppell’s name still hadn’t been called the atmosphere was electric. Then second place was announced and the Coppell Drum Major began to step forward before realizing it was Keller who had finished second. There was a brief silence and then the Coppell parents exploded in celebration.

The irony of that day was that Keller‘s Director had written Coppell’s drill. In retrospect it was a masterpiece that perfectly highlighted the transitory nature of the period. Core style drill was becoming popular in UIL competition but still faced some resistance as it was replacing military style drill. Coppell’s drill that year blended the two styles masterfully.

Mr. McGahey doesn’t write drill for the competition anymore. 😏 

[Gehrig4]

On 10/31/2022 at 11:59 PM, 1998-2018 said:

That’s a bridge too far for me. Top programs are not propped up by the “scaffolding” of their prior achievements or reputation.

This is an extremely complex activity and excellence and judging is not always clearly understood by the crowd in the stands. However, it is earned and then demonstrated repeatedly, or not. It’s definitely difficult to attain, but once achieved, excellence also typically has a momentum that is not easily lost. But it has nothing to do with reputation. For example, an excellent program must get their freshman up to the level the other students have already achieved. Additionally the program has already cracked the code and established the environment necessary to accomplish this year after year. In contrast, an up and coming program may need to increase the performance level of many more students across the classes and is also still working to establish an environment that consistently produces excellence. This is what makes it so difficult to break into the next level. Not reputation “scaffolding”.

 I will agree the Judges know these programs, but I can assure you they have no respect for reputation once the actual performance and judging begins. Examples abound in the relatively recent history of both Area B (including this year) and the SMBC.

I’d like to be more specific but naming programs that may have come up short (past or present) can unpleasantly fire up forum participants so this is where I bow out and respectfully agree to disagree.

In closing I will say I suspect many people will find the process less frustrating if they embrace this explanation and let go of the belief that “It’s always the same bands…” due to anything other than just that day’s performance. It can make the long journey to sustained excellence more understandable and satisfying.

You’re entitled to your opinion.   I’m entitled to mine.   Yours is informed by no better evidence than mine is.    But I will say that there is evidence.   We will agree to disagree.   I will say also that I have heard, with my own ears, directors communicating that the phenomena does occur.  I’ve heard judges say it does occur.    It’s theoretical impossible for it NOT to occur. (And if you would like to get into that erudition - we can take this outside of this forum)   So it’s not just my opinion.    If you reread my original post, I don’t quibble with it.   Your esoteric explanation really dances around the key word- it’s subjective.    Just like gymnastics and ice skating - and therefore it uses criterion that aren’t objective.    Like reputation.    Boxing.   Same thing.  
 

my point is that when you see teams and people begin to overcome that - it’s far more than just perfunctory.    That’s the whole point.    Period.   Full stop.    
 

And that’s irrefutable.  

[LeanderMomma]

Spicy. 👀👀

[moneyman]

On 10/30/2022 at 11:50 AM, BandFan59 said:

If anyone has any recordings of the bands here please DM me

 

[1998-2018]

16 hours ago, Gehrig4 said:

You’re entitled to your opinion.   I’m entitled to mine.   Yours is informed by no better evidence than mine is.    But I will say that there is evidence.   We will agree to disagree.   I will say also that I have heard, with my own ears, directors communicating that the phenomena does occur.  I’ve heard judges say it does occur.    It’s theoretical impossible for it NOT to occur. (And if you would like to get into that erudition - we can take this outside of this forum)   So it’s not just my opinion.    If you reread my original post, I don’t quibble with it.   Your esoteric explanation really dances around the key word- it’s subjective.    Just like gymnastics and ice skating - and therefore it uses criterion that aren’t objective.    Like reputation.    Boxing.   Same thing.  
 

my point is that when you see teams and people begin to overcome that - it’s far more than just perfunctory.    That’s the whole point.    Period.   Full stop.    
 

And that’s irrefutable.  

“You’re entitled to your opinion.   I’m entitled to mine. Yours is informed by no better evidence than mine is..”

Objection. Facts not in evidence. This statement has no basis for support and is therefore purely speculative.

“But I will say that there is evidence.”

Anecdotal evidence is largely meaningless, only empirical evidence matters. Due to the nature of this forum and some participant’s preferences neither of us will be allowed to openly discuss the evidence and I have no desire to take this conversation outside the forum. I’ve been down this path enough times before. Hang on to your opinion if it helps you rationalize outcomes and enjoy competitions. It didn’t help me when I was getting started.

“I will say also that I have heard, with my own ears, directors communicating that the phenomena does occur.”

So have I, generally from Directors struggling to rationalize their programs difficulties breaking through to the next level. Saying something happens doesn’t make it true.

“I’ve heard judges say it does occur.”

No comment. Addressing this directly would require breaking our programs Code of Conduct. I’m not going to do that. However, I will add that I notice you didn’t indicate whether the judges you heard said they have personally made decisions based on reputation or if they were saying they know about others who admit to doing it.

 “So it’s not just my opinion.”

Correct. Unfortunately it’s a very widely held fallacy. Again, that doesn’t make it true.

“If you reread my original post, I don’t quibble with it.”

No need. I noted that the first time. I’m not convinced that bears any relevance on the subject.

“Your esoteric explanation really dances around the key word- it’s subjective.    Just like gymnastics and ice skating - and therefore it uses criterion that aren’t objective.”

This activity is a combination of science and art. Of course it’s subjective; I did not suggest otherwise. One of the issues in UIL judging is that the relative value of these subjective preferences are not well defined. For example, are musical and visual accuracy more or less valuable than demand? This example, to a certain extent, also falls on a sliding scale of subjectivity but that doesn’t mean it can’t be better defined through documented video training examples. The NFL and NCAA use this option to clarify pass interference rules changing from well defined objectivity in the ‘70’s to the highly subjective mess of today’s game. Another example would be whether music and drill demand have higher value when performed in combination versus being performed separately. This one is actually defined on the judging sheet but we routinely see some bands highly rewarded for what amounts to “park and play” even though this is clearly not in compliance with the current judging sheet. Adjudication based entirely, or even just heavily, on personal preferences is not sustainable. As for the esoteric nature of my comment, you seem to have missed the point. There are people on this forum who can, and will, learn when given the opportunity, simply because they want too.

“Like reputation.“

Where exactly is “reputation” on the judging sheet? I’m not saying there are no Judges that have ever been influenced by reputation. But I am saying that it is a very small minority and also highly inappropriate. All a Judge has is their own reputation which is why they don’t let a bands reputation influence the outcome of a competition. Each performance must speak for itself or integrity and credibility is lost.

“Boxing”

An interesting example. A few years ago I asked a Judge I’ve known for decades about his decision regarding First and Second place at DCI Finals in Indianapolis. He talked me through the details and then said, “If you want to beat the World Champion, you have to do it decisively and leave no question about it.” On the surface that statement might appear to support the idea of reputation influencing a Judge but further discussion revealed that’s not what he was talking about. If you want to break through to the next level, kick down the door. Win decisively. Leave no doubt.

“And that’s irrefutable.”

Hardly, but you have made it clear you have no intention of being persuaded which is why I originally indicated I was done with this conversation. I chose to reengage because of the possibility that someone else will be open to the information and learn a new perspective. Thereby giving up on a tired fallacy, while gaining a better understanding of the adjudication process and more satisfying enjoyment of the contests they attend. It worked for me.

Yeah, I know. My wife always tells me, “Too many words.” 🙄

[Vidal28]

16 hours ago, 1998-2018 said:

“You’re entitled to your opinion.   I’m entitled to mine. Yours is informed by no better evidence than mine is..”

Objection. Facts not in evidence. This statement has no basis for support and is therefore purely speculative.

“But I will say that there is evidence.”

Anecdotal evidence is largely meaningless, only empirical evidence matters. Due to the nature of this forum and some participant’s preferences neither of us will be allowed to openly discuss the evidence and I have no desire to take this conversation outside the forum. I’ve been down this path enough times before. Hang on to your opinion if it helps you rationalize outcomes and enjoy competitions. It didn’t help me when I was getting started.

“I will say also that I have heard, with my own ears, directors communicating that the phenomena does occur.”

So have I, generally from Directors struggling to rationalize their programs difficulties breaking through to the next level. Saying something happens doesn’t make it true.

“I’ve heard judges say it does occur.”

No comment. Addressing this directly would require breaking our programs Code of Conduct. I’m not going to do that. However, I will add that I notice you didn’t indicate whether the judges you heard said they have personally made decisions based on reputation or if they were saying they know about others who admit to doing it.

 “So it’s not just my opinion.”

Correct. Unfortunately it’s a very widely held fallacy. Again, that doesn’t make it true.

“If you reread my original post, I don’t quibble with it.”

No need. I noted that the first time. I’m not convinced that bears any relevance on the subject.

“Your esoteric explanation really dances around the key word- it’s subjective.    Just like gymnastics and ice skating - and therefore it uses criterion that aren’t objective.”

This activity is a combination of science and art. Of course it’s subjective; I did not suggest otherwise. One of the issues in UIL judging is that the relative value of these subjective preferences are not well defined. For example, are musical and visual accuracy more or less valuable than demand? This example, to a certain extent, also falls on a sliding scale of subjectivity but that doesn’t mean it can’t be better defined through documented video training examples. The NFL and NCAA use this option to clarify pass interference rules changing from well defined objectivity in the ‘70’s to the highly subjective mess of today’s game. Another example would be whether music and drill demand have higher value when performed in combination versus being performed separately. This one is actually defined on the judging sheet but we routinely see some bands highly rewarded for what amounts to “park and play” even though this is clearly not in compliance with the current judging sheet. Adjudication based entirely, or even just heavily, on personal preferences is not sustainable. As for the esoteric nature of my comment, you seem to have missed the point. There are people on this forum who can, and will, learn when given the opportunity, simply because they want too.

“Like reputation.“

Where exactly is “reputation” on the judging sheet? I’m not saying there are no Judges that have ever been influenced by reputation. But I am saying that it is a very small minority and also highly inappropriate. All a Judge has is their own reputation which is why they don’t let a bands reputation influence the outcome of a competition. Each performance must speak for itself or integrity and credibility is lost.

“Boxing”

An interesting example. A few years ago I asked a Judge I’ve known for decades about his decision regarding First and Second place at DCI Finals in Indianapolis. He talked me through the details and then said, “If you want to beat the World Champion, you have to do it decisively and leave no question about it.” On the surface that statement might appear to support the idea of reputation influencing a Judge but further discussion revealed that’s not what he was talking about. If you want to break through to the next level, kick down the door. Win decisively. Leave no doubt.

“And that’s irrefutable.”

Hardly, but you have made it clear you have no intention of being persuaded which is why I originally indicated I was done with this conversation. I chose to reengage because of the possibility that someone else will be open to the information and learn a new perspective. Thereby giving up on a tired fallacy, while gaining a better understanding of the adjudication process and more satisfying enjoyment of the contests they attend. It worked for me.

Yeah, I know. My wife always tells me, “Too many words.” 🙄

My whole philosophy if I were to be a judge of anything is simply: if they’re good enough, they’re good enough. This speculative “prove it to me” phase that groups supposedly have to go through has always just been unjust silliness to me when people try to bring it up. That’s not how it should work, and lately, we’ve seen pillars of UIL in this area, L.D Bell, and Duncanville miss out on a competition they’ve had a stranglehold on for decades. It’s great to see them back of course, but I always dislike this kind of discourse where groups that haven’t been there before have to navigate baseless biases that aren’t even there in the first place, we have to stop with this. And I definitely agree that each performance on the day for any school is much more impactful than any reputation may have.

[Dallas Hobbs]

On 10/30/2022 at 11:50 AM, BandFan59 said:

If anyone has any recordings of the bands here please DM me

Ld bell community performance

[balumni2023]

31 minutes ago, Dallas Hobbs said:

Ld bell community performance

They changed the music at 3:47 in the leadup to the big hit and I think it sounds so much better. The previous passage they played was always kinda fuzzy and muddled and I'm glad they modified it. 

[Gehrig4]

21 hours ago, 1998-2018 said:

“You’re entitled to your opinion.   I’m entitled to mine. Yours is informed by no better evidence than mine is..”

Objection. Facts not in evidence. This statement has no basis for support and is therefore purely speculative.

“But I will say that there is evidence.”

Anecdotal evidence is largely meaningless, only empirical evidence matters. Due to the nature of this forum and some participant’s preferences neither of us will be allowed to openly discuss the evidence and I have no desire to take this conversation outside the forum. I’ve been down this path enough times before. Hang on to your opinion if it helps you rationalize outcomes and enjoy competitions. It didn’t help me when I was getting started.

“I will say also that I have heard, with my own ears, directors communicating that the phenomena does occur.”

So have I, generally from Directors struggling to rationalize their programs difficulties breaking through to the next level. Saying something happens doesn’t make it true.

“I’ve heard judges say it does occur.”

No comment. Addressing this directly would require breaking our programs Code of Conduct. I’m not going to do that. However, I will add that I notice you didn’t indicate whether the judges you heard said they have personally made decisions based on reputation or if they were saying they know about others who admit to doing it.

 “So it’s not just my opinion.”

Correct. Unfortunately it’s a very widely held fallacy. Again, that doesn’t make it true.

“If you reread my original post, I don’t quibble with it.”

No need. I noted that the first time. I’m not convinced that bears any relevance on the subject.

“Your esoteric explanation really dances around the key word- it’s subjective.    Just like gymnastics and ice skating - and therefore it uses criterion that aren’t objective.”

This activity is a combination of science and art. Of course it’s subjective; I did not suggest otherwise. One of the issues in UIL judging is that the relative value of these subjective preferences are not well defined. For example, are musical and visual accuracy more or less valuable than demand? This example, to a certain extent, also falls on a sliding scale of subjectivity but that doesn’t mean it can’t be better defined through documented video training examples. The NFL and NCAA use this option to clarify pass interference rules changing from well defined objectivity in the ‘70’s to the highly subjective mess of today’s game. Another example would be whether music and drill demand have higher value when performed in combination versus being performed separately. This one is actually defined on the judging sheet but we routinely see some bands highly rewarded for what amounts to “park and play” even though this is clearly not in compliance with the current judging sheet. Adjudication based entirely, or even just heavily, on personal preferences is not sustainable. As for the esoteric nature of my comment, you seem to have missed the point. There are people on this forum who can, and will, learn when given the opportunity, simply because they want too.

“Like reputation.“

Where exactly is “reputation” on the judging sheet? I’m not saying there are no Judges that have ever been influenced by reputation. But I am saying that it is a very small minority and also highly inappropriate. All a Judge has is their own reputation which is why they don’t let a bands reputation influence the outcome of a competition. Each performance must speak for itself or integrity and credibility is lost.

“Boxing”

An interesting example. A few years ago I asked a Judge I’ve known for decades about his decision regarding First and Second place at DCI Finals in Indianapolis. He talked me through the details and then said, “If you want to beat the World Champion, you have to do it decisively and leave no question about it.” On the surface that statement might appear to support the idea of reputation influencing a Judge but further discussion revealed that’s not what he was talking about. If you want to break through to the next level, kick down the door. Win decisively. Leave no doubt.

“And that’s irrefutable.”

Hardly, but you have made it clear you have no intention of being persuaded which is why I originally indicated I was done with this conversation. I chose to reengage because of the possibility that someone else will be open to the information and learn a new perspective. Thereby giving up on a tired fallacy, while gaining a better understanding of the adjudication process and more satisfying enjoyment of the contests they attend. It worked for me.

Yeah, I know. My wife always tells me, “Too many words.” 🙄

I see you were more interested in some other point than the one that came before “full stop”.    And yes, tldr.     
 

Enjoy this week.    Time to move on.