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BOA St Louis 2019


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Final Results
1.92.050 Broken Arrow H.S., OK

2. 90.275 Blue Springs H.S., MO

3. 89.200 L.D. Bell H.S., TX

4. 88.150 Haltom H.S., TX

5. 88.050 O’Fallon Township H.S., IL

6. 87.950 Coppell H.S., TX

7. 86.250 Union H.S., OK

8. 85.550 Stephen F. Austin H.S., TX

9. 83.600 Southlake Carroll H.S., TX

10. 83.600 Camdenton H.S., MO

11. 82.975 Rosemount H.S., MN

12. 82.950 Lake Travis H.S., TX

13. 82.800 Jenks H.S., OK

14. 81.450 Bentonville H.S., AR

 

Outstanding Music Performance - Broken Arrow H.S., OK

Outstanding Visual Performance - Broken Arrow H.S., OK

Outstanding General Effect - Broken Arrow H.S., OK

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Oh, I almost threw something at the screen just now. :D Hardcore disagree with these results. Well, except for Broken Arrow, of course. The judges and I did not watch the same shows tonight. Or maybe we did, but people were afraid to rock the boat. Whatever!

Just curious, what were your personal rankings?

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Just curious, what were your personal rankings?

 

It's not the entire results. Just the fact that Haltom did not place in 2nd, which is where they should have placed. Also, the fact that they ended up 2 points away from it.

 

I'd also like to point out the considerably larger gap between Rosemount and Blue Springs here. :D

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It's not the entire results. Just the fact that Haltom did not place in 2nd, which is where they should have placed. Also, the fact that they ended up 2 points away from it.

 

I'd also like to point out the considerably larger gap between Rosemount and Blue Springs here. :D

I saw Haltom's finals performance (I missed many of the others).  To me (and I am far from an expert) it seemed as there was a lot of park n play with no movement, their spacing was off, and some of their steps seemed off.  It was a fun looking show, but didn't seem as crisp as I've seen before. 

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I saw Haltom's finals performance (I missed many of the others).  To me (and I am far from an expert) it seemed as there was a lot of park n play with no movement, their spacing was off, and some of their steps seemed off.  It was a fun looking show, but didn't seem as crisp as I've seen before. 

 

There were certainly some visual deficiencies, but the music scores should have been way higher. I'm going through the recaps now. In prelims, John Phillips actually had Haltom in a comfortable first place in his panel in music effect, over both LD Bell and Blue Springs. That's how it should have went down. For whatever reason, Phillips totally changed his mind in finals when judging the same caption.

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There were certainly some visual deficiencies, but the music scores should have been way higher. I'm going through the recaps now. In prelims, John Phillips actually had Haltom in a comfortable first place in his panel in music effect, over both LD Bell and Blue Springs. That's how it should have went down. For whatever reason, Phillips totally changed his mind in finals when judging the same caption.

I saw that also . And I thought the finals performance musically was better as well. Strange . Atleast the underdog did something unexpected. As I look at the prediction pages many had them in bottom of finals . And look at them 4th. In my books I count that as a win. Maybe they didn’t get third but they were still awesome and put on everything they had. And that right there is a win.

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Wonderful attending finals in person. Tried to weasel in a stop at Six Flags to activate my Season Pass and it bit me in the rear, ended up missing SFA and Jenks. The remaining 12, great stuff!

 

Lake Travis was good, though I wish they managed to clean more since Austin.

Was happy to see Bentonville in finals; I rehearsed at their stadium my junior year on the way to this very competition.

Carroll was fantastic, proved that they were not a bubble band that needed to worry about whether they should make it.

Camdenton, their first time in finals was the year my group came up and missed, they're on the up-and-up; loved the open/close of this show, mystifyingly unnerving.

Rosemount unfortunately didn't wow me, and the gap between them and Blue Springs seems to show it.

Broken Arrow. Yee-haw! (Chuck's announcement was great!) (also heard some of their sections warming up in the parking garage while I was walking around, which was neat)

Union seemed rough around the edges, and I'm a bit surprised a bottom 7 group didn't jump them in finals; still a good showing.

O'Fallon Township was much much much better in person than on stream for me. (fun side note here, you know how parents do the yell and spell of the school name? You know how we heard it for O'Fallon? That wasn't parents. That was the Franklin band cheering them on. Heartwarming!)

Coppell! Some of the greatest sounds of the night! Also much better in person than on stream.

Bell was wonderful. The prop usage is definitely a stray from the norm. Great run in finals earned them that medal!

Blue Springs was fun, but it lacks... something. Not anything that keeps them near the top of this event though.

Haltom!!!! I made a post saying I wanted to see this show in person, and HOLY COW does it deliver. Possibly my favorite show of the night!

 

Camped outside the tunnel after retreat, chatted with members of a few groups, mainly the Texas ones and Bentonville.

 

 

Keep sending Texas bands to this event please! I need your blessings while I'm up here for college!

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Texas had such an amazing showing yesterday. 

 

Carroll really made a statement by placing 12th at Bedford, only to return as top 10 at STL. It was also awesome to see SFA near the top half. Seems like they're really making strides to return to BOA. Then the drama of Bell vs Haltom. Man, what a great contest.

 

I was a little disappointed in numbers management and how it affected Lake Travis. They dove from 85 to 82 between prelims and finals the only difference I really could tell was that they would have been compared with Bell in prelims versus being compared to the bottom split in finals. It seemed that the numbers in the bottom half were kept very tight (besides SFA), while the numbers at the top half were allowed to vary more. Normally, I'd buy the argument that 8-14 are easier to compare vs 1-7, but it just doesn't make sense to me why there was such a divide, especially considering that bottom 7 didn't seem too different than bottom of the top tier.. 

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Texas had such an amazing showing yesterday. 

 

Carroll really made a statement by placing 12th at Bedford, only to return as top 10 at STL. It was also awesome to see SFA near the top half. Seems like they're really making strides to return to BOA. Then the drama of Bell vs Haltom. Man, what a great contest.

 

I was a little disappointed in numbers management and how it affected Lake Travis. They dove from 85 to 82 between prelims and finals the only difference I really could tell was that they would have been compared with Bell in prelims versus being compared to the bottom split in finals. It seemed that the numbers in the bottom half were kept very tight (besides SFA), while the numbers at the top half were allowed to vary more. Normally, I'd buy the argument that 8-14 are easier to compare vs 1-7, but it just doesn't make sense to me why there was such a divide, especially considering that bottom 7 didn't seem too different than bottom of the top tier.. 

 

Another consideration is that SFA was the first to perform and set the standard. The panel felt that SFA should be about an 85-86, and didn't see Lake Travis in that light during finals. SFA was less than a point from Union for breaking into the top half, even while going off first. I think that is huge for SFA - bottom half Houston finalist and oh so close to breaking into top half here.

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Im sorry, and I admit my bias, but I have to give a shoutout to SFA. This was their first super regional finals appearance since before I was even in high school, which is truly heartwarming to see. A few years ago, they were strong performers, but the program was drastically smaller than their competitors, and struggling to find their identity as a Houston area powerhouse. What I saw in finals last night shows that they are back, and will be a force to be reckoned with very very soon. Very proud alumni. I also have to give a shoutout to the other TX programs who competed in finals, as it seemed that it was a benchmark performance for all of them, whether it be their strongest performance in some time, or their strongest performance to date. Finals last night makes me very proud to be a product of TX marching band.

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Another consideration is that SFA was the first to perform and set the standard. The panel felt that SFA should be about an 85-86, and didn't see Lake Travis in that light during finals. SFA was less than a point from Union for breaking into the top half, even while going off first. I think that is huge for SFA - bottom half Houston finalist and oh so close to breaking into top half here.

 

 

Keep in mind that super regionals have two separate panels for prelims.  It is the task of the chief judge to keep both panels on the same spectrum but I'm not sure that is ever going to be possible.  That could explain the wide swing in numbers from prelims to finals.

 

 

Yep, LT played right before Bell and was in the same panel if not the same block as SFA. Coppell was in a different panel and barely edged out LT by a few tenths of a point.

 

Three observations I had about the scoring:

 

1) The huge drop off where it doesn't seem that warranted (the bottom of the top half did not seem to be substantially better than the top of the bottom half, especially considering they weren't in prelims). This is constantly a complaint since the implementation of the "Hebron Rule". 

 

2) The spread in finals actually looks like two separate contests put together, as opposed to a continuous gradient (i.e. it is doesn't really make sense that the scores were held so tightly at the bottom, while they were allowed to breath at the top). This is especially strange by the fact that prelims was practically two separate contests by design (i.e. two separate panels) and that set of judges was able to create a constant gradient of scores. If you look at 5th - 14th, there is a 5 pt spread of no significant jumps. In finals between 5th - 14th there is a seven pt difference and a huge gap after 8th. I thought that SFA was good; I didn't think they were 2 pts ahead of their peers, especially considering that they middle of the pack in prelims. I also didn't think that Union should have been almost 3 pts ahead of all of the bottom half.

 

3) LT's huge drop in scores when there didn't seem to be a huge drop in execution (at least that I noticed). Again, this seemed more influenced by the fact that they were assigned bottomed half. They were in a very competitive block in prelims. If they had any gaping deficiencies, I think it would have shown up in those scores.

 

I get that judges are experts of their craft, but I don't think that makes them immune to psychology. The implementation of a top/bottom split inherently enables biases that deflates scores at the bottom. If the judges aren't mindful, it causes weird patterns in the data.

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Im sorry, and I admit my bias, but I have to give a shoutout to SFA. This was their first super regional finals appearance since before I was even in high school, which is truly heartwarming to see. A few years ago, they were strong performers, but the program was drastically smaller than their competitors, and struggling to find their identity as a Houston area powerhouse. What I saw in finals last night shows that they are back, and will be a force to be reckoned with very very soon. Very proud alumni. I also have to give a shoutout to the other TX programs who competed in finals, as it seemed that it was a benchmark performance for all of them, whether it be their strongest performance in some time, or their strongest performance to date. Finals last night makes me very proud to be a product of TX marching band.

No apology necessary. Totally agree that this is SFAs best showing in a good while. Very pretty show with a great visual program that they performed with a ton of energy. Their finals performance especially was super energetic, drumline at the end felt that. So much hype. They have had quite the season!

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No apology necessary. Totally agree that this is SFAs best showing in a good while. Very pretty show with a great visual program that they performed with a ton of energy. Their finals performance especially was super energetic, drumline at the end felt that. So much hype. They have had quite the season!

Wish it didn't have to end yet :( 

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Yep, LT played right before Bell and was in the same panel if not the same block as SFA. Coppell was in a different panel and barely edged out LT by a few tenths of a point.

 

Three observations I had about the scoring:

 

1) The huge drop off where it doesn't seem that warranted (the bottom of the top half did not seem to be substantially better than the top of the bottom half, especially considering they weren't in prelims). This is constantly a complaint since the implementation of the "Hebron Rule". 

 

2) The spread in finals actually looks like two separate contests put together, as opposed to a continuous gradient (i.e. it is doesn't really make sense that there the scores were held so tightly at the bottom, while they were allowed to breath at the top). This is especially strange by the fact that prelims was practically two separate contests by design (i.e. two separate panels) and that set of judges was able to create a constant gradient of scores. If you look at 5th - 14th, there is a 5 pt spread of no significant jumps. In finals between 5th - 14th there is a seven pt difference and a huge gap after 8th. I thought that SFA was good; I didn't think they were 3 pts ahead of their peers, especially considering that they middle of the pack in prelims. I also didn't think that Union was 4 pts ahead of all of the bottom half.

 

3) LT's huge drop in scores when there didn't see to be a huge drop in execution (at least that I noticed). Again, this seem more influenced by the fact that they were assigned bottomed half. They were in a very competitive block in prelims. If they had any gaping deficiencies, I think it would have shown up in those scores.

 

I get that judges are experts of their craft, but I don't think that makes them immune to psychology. The implementation of a top/bottom split inherently enables biases that deflates scores at the bottom. If the judges aren't mindful, it causes weird patterns in the data.

 

I understand the point you are making, and don't disagree.

 

Couple quibbles - Union was not 4 point ahead of all the bottom half. They were only 4 points up on Bentonville. Close enough to 4 points perhaps for Rosemount, Lake Travis, and Jenks. But still not the whole bottom half. Maybe the bottom half of the bottom half?

 

SFA was 2 points up on Carroll and Camdenton, not 3. Again a quibble and not a disagreement with your point about the 2 panel system and how it rolls into the top/bottom half at super regionals. Perhaps St. Louis is tougher to get a good split among previous finalists than San Antonio or Indianapolis due to higher turnover of finalist quality bands?

 

I'm also not a fan of the 2 panel system without the buffer of semi-finals. I think the day that the 15th place band makes finals and the 14th place band doesn't due to the top 5 in panel rule will be the end of that rule, at least without further modification. In that case, I can see them expanding to add the 15th finalist as they would do in the case of a tie for the last spot. In fact, I think they should maybe proactively make that part of the rulebook for super regionals if they plan to keep this panel system.

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I understand the point you are making, and don't disagree.

 

Couple quibbles - Union was not 4 point ahead of all the bottom half. They were only 4 points up on Bentonville. Close enough to 4 points perhaps for Rosemount, Lake Travis, and Jenks. But still not the whole bottom half. Maybe the bottom half of the bottom half?

 

SFA was 2 points up on Carroll and Camdenton, not 3. Again a quibble and not a disagreement with your point about the 2 panel system and how it rolls into the top/bottom half at super regionals. Perhaps St. Louis is tougher to get a good split among previous finalists than San Antonio or Indianapolis due to higher turnover of finalist quality bands?

 

I'm also not a fan of the 2 panel system without the buffer of semi-finals. I think the day that the 15th place band makes finals and the 14th place band doesn't due to the top 5 in panel rule will be the end of that rule, at least without further modification. In that case, I can see them expanding to add the 15th finalist as they would do in the case of a tie for the last spot. In fact, I think they should maybe proactively make that part of the rulebook for super regionals if they plan to keep this panel system.

 

 

You're right, I accidentally mixed up Union and Coppell's scores when looking at the spreadsheet. I'll fix that.

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Stephen F Austin literally touched my heart!!! They made this show for the crowd to enjoy not for judges to score. They take scores as incentive. You can see the passion and heart they put in. I put this show so high up that i compare to Ballet of Martha when SFA performed it in GN in the early 2000’s. I heard someone in the crowd scream “Be Remembered” that must be their saying or something but i connected to their theme (Dare To Dream). Their dream as a group is to “Be Remembered” and i have to say they definitely are gonna Be Remembered!!! This show was really a mash up of all their shows and brought them back to their roots. Im gonna say it STEPHEN F. AUSTIN IS BACK FOLKS!!!!!!!!

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Stephen F Austin literally touched my heart!!! They made this show for the crowd to enjoy not for judges to score. They take scores as incentive. You can see the passion and heart they put in. I put this show so high up that i compare to Ballet of Martha when SFA performed it in GN in the early 2000’s. I heard someone in the crowd scream “Be Remembered” that must be their saying or something but i connected to their theme (Dare To Dream). Their dream as a group is to “Be Remembered” and i have to say they definitely are gonna Be Remembered!!! This show was really a mash up of all their shows and brought them back to their roots. Im gonna say it STEPHEN F. AUSTIN IS BACK FOLKS!!!!!!!!

Glad you understood the deeper meaning of how this show connects to the past, however watching the show I wouldn’t call it a “mashup.” Watching them as a sister school who thought they would never reach the level they were once at, its good to see them heading in the right direction.

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