Grand Nationals 2018???

[principalagent]

Yeah Homestead and Castle are both not bands I would describe as having sophisticated show designs - especially the former. I would agree that Carmel probably does have hands down the most sophisticated shows in the nation on average. (They do have some stinkers too - 2015 anyone?)

[justabandkid94]

Rubisco is pretty dead on. Just got to see the Carmel show. Despite not loving it, the visual/music parity is just stupid good.

 

Think Texas bands may struggle with that point at times — even the top groups

[Somethingbandrelated]

I just dont understand the exceedingly positive reception of their show design.

[Somethingbandrelated]

Someone please, please explain to me how Carmel won GE. I am at an utter loss as to how that show won GE, yeah it was executed well visually, but that’s about it.

[Vidal28]

Going back to the enduring debate of Grand Nats vs. BOA SA, I got a unique take from my head director currently at my alma mater, got to go back with friends and watch the Grand Nats stream, and I asked him which contest do you prefer, GN or SA, he said SA by far, and I was curious to know because my former head director before the current, only had him my freshman year is an adjudicator at many contests, including DCI, Grand Nats, etc. This year he judged BOA SA, and I take this to heart when my band director told me that he said that Grand Nats already happened the weekend before. I think it’s very telling from that perspective alone that BOA San Antonio is potentially surpassing the level of a contest that spans the entire nation in one state. As far as I’ve gotten to take part in competing at this event for the past several years, it’s been getting better and better, every time us spectators thinking “how can this contest be topped?”The next year it gets even better! Even when it was supposed to be a “down” year due to it being a state year, thinking bands were gonna play it safe, the rain epidemic, many band went all out anyway pushing their kids to be better than ever, because that’s the only way, the only way you can compete in this state, whether it’s UIL or BOA, and that just drives competition to new heights every year. Personally I can’t wait to see how crazy bands will be next year, UIL not being a limiting factor besides the 8 hour rule, and with many bands it looks like going past the first weekend of November into Grand Nats, I can’t wait to see how Texas represents, showing the band world how it’s done. Props to Prosper showing everyone how to do that trip two years in a row!! Both on state years, this year adding BOA SA to that gauntlet of travel, rooted for them all year, showed a lot of heart and I’m really glad they made finals

[bingogooberman]

Carmel deserves better than the way they’re being characterized here- there’s a reason they’ve gone back to back to back. Design is off the wall brilliant, execution is flawless. I hate three-peats too because they’re boring but Carmel’s earned it. And no, gn is not rigged in Carmel’s favor. This dominance is pretty new for them.

[CTJBandPops]

Going back to the enduring debate of Grand Nats vs. BOA SA, I got a unique take from my head director currently at my alma mater, got to go back with friends and watch the Grand Nats stream, and I asked him which contest do you prefer, GN or SA, he said SA by far, and I was curious to know because my former head director before the current, only had him my freshman year is an adjudicator at many contests, including DCI, Grand Nats, etc. This year he judged BOA SA, and I take this to heart when my band director told me that he said that Grand Nats already happened the weekend before. I think it’s very telling from that perspective alone that BOA San Antonio is potentially surpassing the level of a contest that spans the entire nation in one state. As far as I’ve gotten to take part in competing at this event for the past several years, it’s been getting better and better, every time us spectators thinking “how can this contest be topped?”The next year it gets even better! Even when it was supposed to be a “down” year due to it being a state year, thinking bands were gonna play it safe, the rain epidemic, many band went all out anyway pushing their kids to be better than ever, because that’s the only way, the only way you can compete in this state, whether it’s UIL or BOA, and that just drives competition to new heights every year. Personally I can’t wait to see how crazy bands will be next year, UIL not being a limiting factor besides the 8 hour rule, and with many bands it looks like going past the first weekend of November into Grand Nats, I can’t wait to see how Texas represents, showing the band world how it’s done. Props to Prosper showing everyone how to do that trip two years in a row!! Both on state years, this year adding BOA SA to that gauntlet of travel, rooted for them all year, showed a lot of heart and I’m really glad they made finals

I would agree and have been saying so for the past few years. While G Nats is the bigger stage and is recognized as the grand daddy of them all. Every year that we see programs that miss finals in SA but make finals in Indy. it goes to show that the field is much stronger top to bottom in San Antonio. Yes, you have the big hitters in Indy like Carmel, Avon, BA and Tarpon to name a few. but compare that to the finals in SA and it's underwhelming. I would love to see more of those top bands make the trip to San Antonio, but as it has been stated earlier, that there is no upside for them to do so - as we saw Avon come here last year and finished 4th - when was the last time that Avon finished 4th in a BOA event?

 

there have been many conversations on these posts about programs that are perceived to have more money than others and can afford more props, equipment, instruction, etc. Factor into that a program that is based in Indy (Carmel/Avon) and has no significant travel cost to be in GNats every year - compared to a Texas program that has to spend $300K or more for a trip to GNats and as they have to commit years in advance, they have to hope that is the year that their show clicks with the judges. in some ways, the same could be said for BOA SA - I am sure that programs from other parts of Texas (DFW/El Paso/Valley) that come for BOA SA and UIL state have to absorb some significant costs to remain here for 4-5 days gives an advantage to SA and Austin programs.

 

looking back to 2013 - TWHS was the last BOA SA winner to go to Indy the week after winning in the dome and they brought home the eagle. Since then we have seen Flo Mo and CTJ win the past 5 BOA SA events and none of those shows ended in Indy - and I would have to say that at the very least, they would have taken a medal - if not the gold.

 

it will be interesting to see how many Texas bands will make the trek to Indy next year, but I venture that it will be less than we all currently think - 

 

Props to Prosper for representing Team Texas this year.

[whitewing09]

I’ll say that I’m not surprised that Carmel won. Their shows are always very advanced visually. This year I noticed that they take a lot of risks musically and they are able to execute well given those risks, so they definitely are achieving.

 

What I don’t understand the score distributions and how Carmel just ran away with some captions. The margins at the bottom were razor thin, only for the spreads at the top to open up. I wasn’t there in person, but via the stream I just can’t wrap my head around the almost three point difference between Tarpon and Carmel.

 

The idea of Carmel and Avon having sophisticated shows is very intriguing to me. I believe their shows are always well design insofar as they have elements that play very well to the rubric or that judges will pick up on more easily than the audience. However, from an actual theme perspective, I often feel like their shows are, for lack of a better term, a little half baked. Voyage to Valhalla seemed to take a few somewhat myopic thoughts around the mythology and put them together with a competitive visual book and deceptively difficult musical book. I felt the same way with Serenity and Adagio Presto. They’ve been wildly successful, so maybe that’s all it takes?

[jmj]

All I know is that I vastly prefer what we’re doing here. I am nearly always entertained whether it’s at BOA SA or a local invitational with smaller bands. And I’m both generally entertained, plus awed by the complexity of drill/music/guard work, etc. And I think that is what we do SO WELL in Texas. The ability to enjoy a show on both levels: the entertaining/wow that was neat/conveyed XYZ emotion-level AS WELL AS the omg jaw-on-the-floor, did you hear that crazy woodwind run/see that amazing rifle toss/witness that incredible bass drum lick/see that super clean block rotation while the trumpets were double-tonguing-level from band after band after band.

 

Plus, we just sound so darn good from 1st place to 35th place now. These days everyone is sounding pretty amazing and doing interesting things. It’s a great testament to music education here that that the levels of musicianship have risen to the heights we have in this state now.

 

Lastly, it’s a great example of the depth here that we can send our INSANELY GOOD 16th-ranked band (at both BOA and UIL) and they earn a place in the top 11 at the nationals. Incredible job representing us, Prosper!!

 

Keep doing what you’re doing, Texas! Because it’s incredible.

[LeanderMomma]

Someone please, please explain to me how Carmel won GE. I am at an utter loss as to how that show won GE, yeah it was executed well visually, but that’s about it.

I guess this is my real question. I obviously do not fully understand GE. I would love to sit in on the judging sometime, or be a fly on the wall! I just want to better understand what the judges see and are looking for. Maybe even a video from someone who has done it before. You know, like those YouTube reaction videos that are popular now? I would honestly love to watch someone like Jarrett Lipman or Jay Webb record themselves doing a reaction video of the top bands in the nation. Point out the little things we mortals might have missed. Show us the minor flaws and the major bonus points. I don’t want to believe any contest is rigged. I just want to learn and to better understand what I’m looking for in a winning show, whether it be UIL, BOA SA or Grand Nationals.

[Majellan]

I'm going to break this down.  Home field advantage, Carmel didn't travel to Texas for a reason, props to Avon for taking it on last year.  I know BOA has a good situation in Indianapolis for staging alot of bands with the convention center next door.  They should rotate the grand nationals(not just to San Antonio but around the nation), there is always alot of argument on this but it's not a coincidence that the local bands have a disproportionate amount of wins.  I wasn't impressed with Carmel last night, I mean they were good, but not as good as the hype.  Living next door and the music for all headquarters being in indianapolis brings an advantage that takes alot to overcome.  Not impossible obviously as LD Bell, Westfield, Spring, and The Woodlands have proven, but travel is hard to overcome, paticularly for bands.  Prosper is a good band, but they made finals here easy so the contest is at the very least on par with San Antonio.  I know I'll get some pushback on this, but this gets a bit ridiculous watching Carmel, Avon and Broken Arrow take it home every year.  (I add Broken Arrow in the mix because they refuse to go south, props to Union on braving the Dallas BOA regionals, too bad finals were rained out)

 

Even if the rotation was just Indianapolis, San Antonio, St. Louis, Atlanta and some location out west perhaps in Phoenix so it is a truly national competition.....Trying to be fair there, really I wold like it to alternate between Indianapolis and San Antonio, however, placing a couple of locations would get rid of the argument of indiana bands in national one year and Texas bands the next.  Somehow it was easier to accept when Marian Catholic had their winning run at least they were a couple of hundred miles away.

 

Alternate it into Texas for the past thirty years what would the history look like....multiple Westfield, Spring, LDBell, Marcus, and TWHS wins plus I would say a Flo Mo win this year and CTJ last year.  (Hard to say Flo Mo this year because Vista Ridge is by far my fave this year) Any thoughts?

 

One more add to my wall of text, Blue Springs did better than the ranking indicated in my opinion.

[LeanderMomma]

I'm going to break this down. Home field advantage, Carmel didn't travel to Texas for a reason, props to Avon for taking it on last year. I know BOA has a good situation in Indianapolis for staging alot of bands with the convention center next door. They should rotate the grand nationals(not just to San Antonio but around the nation), there is always alot of argument on this but it's not a coincidence that the local bands have a disproportionate amount of wins. I wasn't impressed with Carmel last night, I mean they were good, but not as good as the hype. Living next door and the music for all headquarters being in indianapolis brings an advantage that takes alot to overcome. Not impossible obviously as LD Bell, Westfield, Spring, and The Woodlands have proven, but travel is hard to overcome, paticularly for bands. Prosper is a good band, but they made finals here easy so the contest is at the very least on par with San Antonio. I know I'll get some pushback on this, but this gets a bit ridiculous watching Carmel, Avon and Broken Arrow take it home every year. (I add Broken Arrow in the mix because they refuse to go south, props to Union on braving the Dallas BOA regionals, too bad finals were rained out)

 

Even if the rotation was just Indianapolis, San Antonio, St. Louis, Atlanta and some location out west perhaps in Phoenix so it is a truly national competition.....Trying to be fair there, really I wold like it to alternate between Indianapolis and San Antonio, however, placing a couple of locations would get rid of the argument of indiana bands in national one year and Texas bands the next. Somehow it was easier to accept when Marian Catholic had their winning run at least they were a couple of hundred miles away.

 

Alternate it into Texas for the past thirty years what would the history look like....multiple Westfield, Spring, LDBell, Marcus, and TWHS wins plus I would say a Flo Mo win this year and CTJ last year. (Hard to say Flo Mo this year because Vista Ridge is by far my fave this year) Any thoughts?

 

One more add to my wall of text, Blue Springs did better than the ranking indicated in my opinion.

I love this idea of moving GN around the country. It would certainly even up the odds a bit.

 

Man I tried making the home field advantage argument in the MFA forum, and those Indiana people ain’t having it!

[Samuel Culper]

I love this idea of moving GN around the country. It would certainly even up the odds a bit.

 

Man I tried making the home field advantage argument in the MFA forum, and those Indiana people ain’t having it!

I had that same experience.

[Guest]

 

I had that same experience.

On the flip side, if nationals were held in TX, there would be a gross oversaturation of Texas bands, which imo would make it much less interesting.

[Somethingbandrelated]

 

On the flip side, if nationals were held in TX, there would be a gross oversaturation of Texas bands, which imo would make it much less interesting.

Have you been to a SA competition? They are far more interesting in every way. It’s actually competitive there.

[Majellan]

Kind of like the over saturation of Indiana bands there. No, that’s why I think it should be rotated to several places. That way Neither Texas nor Indiana has home field advantage every year. I’ve mentioned on the boa forums also, Indiana doesn’t like not staying at home. I don’t blame them, takes away their inherent advantage.

[LeanderMomma]

On the flip side, if nationals were held in TX, there would be a gross oversaturation of Texas bands, which imo would make it much less interesting.

I agree. Rotating nationals around the country would be the ideal solution. But MFA is located in Indianapolis so that isn’t going to happen.

[Guest]

 

Have you been to a SA competition? They are far more interesting in every way. It’s actually competitive there.

Yes, I have been to it many times as a performer and and spectator. But nationals is what it should be, a NATIONAl competition. if it was held in texas, it would be dominated by Texas bands.

[Guest]

 

I agree. Rotating nationals around the country would be the ideal solution. But MFA is located in Indianapolis so that isn’t going to happen.

Agree 100%.

[Somethingbandrelated]

Okay Carmel honestly had decent design looking back. Visuals (Props and Drill) were really well written. Ive realized what makes it so boring is the lack of good music writing. That’s a HUGE pitfall in their shows. They sound like they play at barely mezzo forte, which majorly downplays the amount of emotional impact they can have. In addition, the music is just not challenging at all. If they had more challenging shows with the same general design, I would be a major carmel fan.

[Samuel Culper]

Yes, I have been to it many times as a performer and and spectator. But nationals is what it should be, a NATIONAl competition. if it was held in texas, it would be dominated by Texas bands.

Which, frankly, is no different than being dominated by bands from within 250 miles of Indy.

[makebeats]

carmel is pretty clean yes, but they don't have the GE to compete with groups like flomo, or even vista ridge who can make judges tear up. Musically I wasnt all that impressed compared to hebron, reagan, and flomo

[makebeats]

blue springs was the only band at grand nats that had the EMOTIONAL appeal of a SA finalist.

[AvonDad]

I came across an old post on MFA forums trying to compare SA with GN and which was better lat year.  People were trying to compare with what they saw online and while streaming.  I can say there was no comparison after being live at both and streaming  to compare with another doesn't work.  When CTJ turned around with that initial horn hit....it kicked you in the chest, it was felt and you knew it.  Loud, clear, pointed and it went on from there.     At Grand Nats last year....well it was quieter and people seemed to already know who was going to win and the shows seem to lack. Felt a bit like it last night as well.  I have never really liked any of Broken Arrow shows in the past.  Very well done, but not my type.  Last night, that changed.  Absolutely loved their show and thought they should take it all, at the least GE.  People in front of me was commenting on the sound that Prosper had and I was thinking, wow, I got a load of that sound last year at SA with a whole lot of bands.  They don't realized this is a hint of what they are missing compared to SA.  At SA, seems NOBODY has a clue who will make finals, let alone scores or placements, because there are so many great programs and anyone can have a great run and anyone can oops, even just a little bit, toss the placements in a hat and try again.  SA appeared to be a real competition, no holds barred, then assemble for awards, break ranks, congrat the winner and make new friends.  Just my 2 cents. 

[makebeats]

I came across an old post on MFA forums trying to compare SA with GN and which was better lat year.  People were trying to compare with what they saw online and while streaming.  I can say there was no comparison after being live at both and streaming  to compare with another doesn't work.  When CTJ turned around with that initial horn hit....it kicked you in the chest, it was felt and you knew it.  Loud, clear, pointed and it went on from there.     At Grand Nats last year....well it was quieter and people seemed to already know who was going to win and the shows seem to lack. Felt a bit like it last night as well.  I have never really liked any of Broken Arrow shows in the past.  Very well done, but not my type.  Last night, that changed.  Absolutely loved their show and thought they should take it all, at the least GE.  People in front of me was commenting on the sound that Prosper had and I was thinking, wow, I got a load of that sound last year at SA with a whole lot of bands.  They don't realized this is a hint of what they are missing compared to SA.  At SA, seems NOBODY has a clue who will make finals, let alone scores or placements, because there are so many great programs and anyone can have a great run and anyone can oops, even just a little bit, toss the placements in a hat and try again.  SA appeared to be a real competition, no holds barred, then assemble for awards, break ranks, congrat the winner and make new friends.  Just my 2 cents. 

amen. We'd love to have more high level non-texas bands come to San Antonio, that way both texas and non-texas groups can learn something from each other. 

(of course, it's be interesting to see how everyone stacks up)

but anyways, can you imagine Carmel's show design with CTJ sound? Vista Ridge's emotional appeal with Avon/BA's visual package? 

Awesome.