Jane D'oh

Maybe it's time for a 7A classification (only sort of kidding).

FYI, if Leander hadn't been saved by the "Bad Judge Rule" at Area, and they had been kept out of State entirely by one wonky judge, I absolutely would have gone to bat just as passionately for them as I would for my own band. They clearly earned a spot at State, and it would have been a huge black eye for UIL in my opinion if Leander had been denied the opportunity to compete there because of one person's whim. Area H was supposed to send 3 bands to State, but they sent 4. That was, in my opinion, the right thing to do. I don't have a kid in the Leander band; I don't pay taxes there; LISD isn't even in the same Area as my kid's band -- in fact, they're a rival, and it would have benefited my kid's band placement-wise if Leander hadn't been at State this year. But I would have considered it a travesty if Leander weren't at State, and I would have unequivocally supported their director if he had registered a complaint.

One of my suggestions for similar circumstances in the future was to modify/extend the so-called "Bad Judge Rule" to address extraordinary spreads in ordinals between judges who are evaluating the same caption, which in this year's situation might have sent 13 bands through to finals and would not have cost the 12th-place band a thing. I don't think anyone said TWHS didn't deserve to be in finals; in fact, several of us acknowledged repeatedly that every one of the 12 that went to finals absolutely 100% deserved to be there. In fact, there were about 17 bands by my count that could have been in finals and I would not have questioned their place there for a moment. TWHS puts on a consistently amazing show every year. I was in awe of how well your program recovered after Harvey last year. You could not tell by the end of the season that TWHS and many other Houston-area schools had gone through such a devastating natural disaster because the quality of the performances remained so high. Again, this discussion isn't really about RRHS or TWHS or any other specific band or year or event -- it's about the entire UIL competition and judging system going forward. It may be in the directors' hands, but I'd say it's a foolish director who doesn't acknowledge the importance of having the parents', district's, and community's full support for and belief in the integrity of the competitions they attend.

I think it's because people think those of us expressing concern and proposing solutions are just Round Rock supporters whining about what happened to Round Rock. They're missing the main point that most of us have made, which is that this should be regarded as a problem that can and does affect any band program in Texas at any time and shouldn't. In the end, it's really not about Round Rock or any other specific band that has received wildly varying ordinals in a UIL competition. Round Rock's 20-ordinal spread between marching judges this year was just a shockingly clear example of what detractors have admitted HAPPENS TO MANY BANDS, EVERY YEAR, to one degree or another. That is exactly why we're urging directors to call for real change -- it's not just Round Rock and one undesired outcome (or even two, though that does establish a concerning pattern, as you pointed out earlier). It's about the integrity of the whole competition and the need for some kind of calibration and accountability of judges in the system moving forward. TxDragonDad has put it in clear scientific/mathematical terms several times now, and if we all take our emotions and biases about our own kids and programs out of the equation, it seems fundamentally clear that there IS a consistent and provable problem, and it SHOULD be addressed for everyone's sake in the future.

Add one other point about directors' likelihood of bringing this up to UIL: 4) The directors that HAVE had this happen to their programs (the ones with the strongest motivation and the best case to make for change) aren't likely to complain either because it's perceived as whining or sour grapes, and I'm certain they feel strong pressure to take the high road and "just move on" (as we're seeing here on this thread).

Here's another idea for UIL: What about appointing a "Chief Judge," whose job is to judge the judges. He or she would review the placements before they're released, and if there are any real standouts (like maybe a 10+ ordinal difference among judges in one category), the Chief Judge would approach the judge(s) to get justification for their decisions. If they say it was because they saw two kids at the back of the 10-yd line doing the Chicken Dance during the ballad, okay. The other marching judge probably couldn't see that, which would explain the huge difference. The score stands. If they give a reason that's not within the UIL judging criteria, like not liking the uniforms, the Chief Judge can overrule. Maybe watch video replay to judge for themselves. A band should be able to march wearing trash bags and get the same fair look as all the other bands in a UIL competition. (Not that Round Rock's uniforms are trash bags -- in my opinion, they're the best-looking uniforms on the field, bar none.) That would be a less expensive solution than going to 9 judges, and it would add a layer of accountability that might set a lot of minds at ease in the future. Of course, there's always the risk that the Chief Judge would be biased as well, but like a newspaper hiring an ombudsman, it behooves the organization to police itself and provide transparency if they want to maintain the trust and respect of the people they serve.

It was the same judge, who did the exact same thing to Round Rock this year as he did six years ago. It seems like a personal vendetta to me. (I had a kid in the Dragon Band in 2012, and my second kid is in Dragon Band now. It was devastating for them both times.) In my opinion, the fastest and easiest "fix" for such circumstances would be to slightly revise the "bad judge rule" (the same one that saved Leander at Area this year) to protect bands in the future from one really, really, really off-base ranking like this. If the "bad judge rule" were extended or modified to address a huge discrepancy like a 20-place difference between two judges supposedly judging the same thing, 13 bands would have gone to finals this time. Yes, UIL judging needs far more reform than that; obviously there needs to be better clarification of judging criteria and improved training/calibration of judges. But anything at all to protect bands from such wild variations in ordinals would help. It would be a start, and a relatively quick and easy one at that. Please know that in my opinion all 12 bands that went to finals this year absolutely deserved to be there, and Round Rock was not positioned to medal this year regardless, so this is not sour grapes or undue bias on my part. In fact, This was my last UIL year as a band parent, so I no longer have a horse in this race. But the statistician who posted earlier is absolutely right -- you other parents and directors and fans of the marching arts need to carry this torch, or it will indeed keep happening every year, and it will continue to delegitimize the competition in the public's minds.

Found it. It's lovely! They used the choreography very effectively to take full advantage of the dresses, which created an almost flag-like effect on the field when the skirts flared out with leg movements, spins, and leaps. And those girls moved A LOT -- it looked like they dance-ran the equivalent of the full hundred yards multiple times through the course of the show. And of course, there were a ton of them, so they filled the field while enhancing the band's drill rather than fighting it for attention. Though video quality has come a very long way in 13 years, and I can't see the kids' expressions the way you describe them, I can see that the dancers finished with the same level of energy and commitment to their movement as they started. Like I said, they covered a lot of ground, but they didn't wilt at the end. Very nice. I see what you and Dan mean now. Thank you for sharing!

Yes. Yes they do. Mad respect for what Vandegrift is accomplishing by the way. I'm just curious about what seems like an apples and oranges comparison between dance teams and color guards.

I'm intrigued. I'll have to see if I can find some videos. But that just reinforces the question of why other groups should continue doing the really difficult equipment work AND dancing if dance alone suffices. Is it just much more challenging to place high with a dance team alone?

Okay, yeah. I'll grant you that.

I don't know. It was a fantastic show, but do you think they could medal at GN with a guard/dance team that doesn't spin or toss equipment beyond some relatively easy swing flag parts? I'm just thinking that there's no way when you have bands like Carmel, Avon, and Broken Arrow putting almost DCI-level guards on the field. But then again, I've asked about this before and been told color guard doesn't factor in as heavily as I think it should, so maybe Vandy would do great. I just don't see the incentive for other schools to do the hard and dangerous equipment work if a band can medal at SA and/or GN with just a dance team, y'know? Ronald Reagan uses dancers, but they have an equal number of guard members who use equipment (and do it well). That seems like a more effective way to use a dance team to me

I guess it's personal preference, but I like Avon's visual effect much better than Carmel's. And I like BA's this year better than both.

Yeah, she made it all the way to the end through sheer determination, and then she just fell over backwards during the final pose and had to be carried out. They said she's fine now and performed in finals without mishap.

They do too! One guard girl passed out at the very end of semis!