2019 BOA Grand National Championships

[principalagent]

Carmel ‘17 is a masterpiece! In my opinion the best visual show this decade and I honestly don’t think it’s close. I don’t love or even really like ‘16 or ‘18 though. I’m really liking them this year but I have some big qualms that I didn’t necessarily have other years from them, even if I didn’t care for that show.

 

Avon ‘16 is a favorite of mine. Avon ‘18 grew on me big time post-season and I really really like it now. Avon ‘17 is fine. Avon ‘19 hasn’t done much for me yet but I haven’t seen a great video of it yet either.

[LHSbandDad]

Carmel ‘17 is a masterpiece! In my opinion the best visual show this decade and I honestly don’t think it’s close. I don’t love or even really like ‘16 or ‘18 though. I’m really liking them this year but I have some big qualms that I didn’t necessarily have other years from them, even if I didn’t care for that show.

 

Avon ‘16 is a favorite of mine. Avon ‘18 grew on me big time post-season and I really really like it now. Avon ‘17 is fine. Avon ‘19 hasn’t done much for me yet but I haven’t seen a great video of it yet either.

Please explain some more why the Carmel style is so important to BOA judges.  Why was '17 a masterpiece?  Seems like to me it would be more about the marching and the music. After all, the MFA website refers to these as "Marching" Championships.  Why is the "artsy" part of it so important?  I am sorta like LeanderMomma in that 2016 was my first exposure to Carmel and Avon and they do have different styles compared to Texas bands but as I study it more I get more confused.  Please elaborate.  Thanks!!

[BlueCircle]

I saw the video of TWHS and I am really really starting to love this show. Probably my favorite other than Reagan this year. The music is just so characteristic and fun and I am SO glad that they are doing something different. I already really like shows by TWHS, but in my opinion, they have gotten a little stale over the last few years. They just need to focus on consistent and high individual performance standards any they will be golden. And they have plenty of time left in the season to clean that up. I love the props when they turn around and I hope they keep adding to the visual story and aesthetic of the show.

[justabandkid94]

Please explain some more why the Carmel style is so important to BOA judges.  Why was '17 a masterpiece?  Seems like to me it would be more about the marching and the music. After all, the MFA website refers to these as "Marching" Championships.  Why is the "artsy" part of it so important?  I am sorta like LeanderMomma in that 2016 was my first exposure to Carmel and Avon and they do have different styles compared to Texas bands but as I study it more I get more confused.  Please elaborate.  Thanks!!

I've lost track of where exactly they are, but some of our more well-versed peers have posted pretty detailed walls of text elaborating on this. I'll do my best to streamline it. It's not that BOA judges are saying "Carmel's approaches to shows are superior, and every other band might as well quit what they're doing at switch to muted, nuanced show styles" -- it's that Carmel is performing what they choose to do exceptionally well, and lately, their "overall package" has been quite a bit stronger than their respective peers at Nationals. Please keep in mind when I say that, I am not comparing them to any Texas bands who topped BOA SA and did not travel to Indy (CTJ 2017, FM15/16/18), as much as I would have loved to know how those bands would have faired.

 

The biggest things that comes to mind right now (in a rush so I may add more later):

Carmel's visual design. Having a great music and engaging show is very effective, of course. But, a big struggle many bands have faced in the past (and several Texas bands today) is having a drill design that matches the musicality of the show. Is the drill random shapes paired with music, or does it have a smooth flow to it that matches the pacing of the music? Do I see what I hear? This, admittedly, is something that has taken me nearly a decade+ of following BOA to really develop an eye for, and there are far more educated people on this forum who could articulate this better than I am. Is the visual design the sole reason Carmel is unstoppable? No, but it helps certainly elevate them above the rest. Also, they have Michael Gaines designing, who is one of the all-time-great DCI designers and has essentially an unmatched talent for this stuff. Plymouth Canton was king of this in the early 2000s, and this streak Gaines is on right now is placing Carmel amidst those ranks. It's almost unfair, haha 

 

Something more obvious: Carmel performs the heck out of their shows. Obviously, not having the 8 hour limitation helps immensely. Pick any individual marcher out and follow them through the performance, and you'll see mastery of the expectations given to them.  

 

Even if it was just about the music and the marching - no GE - they'd still be smacking the s*** out of people. Besides, if it was only about the marching and music, CTJ wouldn't have their crazy cool vibes, Leander wouldn't infuse some 2004 Britney into their show, The Woodlands wouldn't be marching in sailor uniforms this year, etc etc. Effect is just as important and truthfully, the importance that is placed on GE is what drives so much of the innovation in shows year after year 

[LeanderMomma]

Best explanation to date! Thank you so much!!

[Rubisco]

I think the music caption for sure comes back to Texas (Marcus 2017 was robbed). But not so sure about anything else yet.

 

I agree about Marcus 2017, although I had a feeling Carmel would win music, so it wasn't super surprising. I'm not so sure yet about the music caption coming back to Texas this year. Hebron wasn't quite as polished musically early in the season as they usually are, although they could shape up by late season. Vandegrift sounds great, and gives a powerful and exciting music performance, but I'm wondering if Avon and/or Carmel might end up giving the more dynamic and expressive performance. Avon is giving me serious 2010 vibes in that early season video. Probably it's the way they put a really exciting, percussive spin on some old classical music classics (although without the rock music this year). I'm pretty sure they won the music caption over LD Bell in 2010 with something approaching (or at) the all-time-high music performance score.

 

I have to say, the only groups that have really given me some "eagle chills" so far have been Avon and Carmel. Avon, because it's an all-around outstanding production, based on the 2 movements I've seen, and Carmel, because of that exceptional visual program. Maybe I'll be wrong, and they'll both be booted out of the top three, but my gut right now is saying that they'll take up 2 spots in the top 3, leaving only one for a Texas group, or William Mason, depending on how they are this year. So then the question is: which Texas group will that be?

 

I honestly don't know.

 

After I watched Vandegrift's show at Austin, I thought that I could see them placing in the top 3 at Nationals. I still think this is a very strong possibility, as this is probably Vandegrift's best ever show. Then you've got all the others, whose early season performances showed that there is a lot of room for growth. Leander's was actually probably the 2nd cleanest early season performance of the Nats groups, which is also why I'm a little concerned about why they aren't closer score-wise to Vandegrift and Reagan. It makes me think that maybe the judges aren't quite connecting with the show, which hopefully becomes less of an issue later in the season. Hebron has a really nice program, although their VGE score at Austin finals makes me a little concerned. As I said, I don't think this performance was as polished as usual, but there's a lot to like about the show. I was, I'll admit, a little disappointed with the ballad, as I thought it would be a bigger moment based on the musical selection. The Woodlands is doing something really fresh and difficult, and they've rebounded in the past from 5 point (or nearly 5 point) deficits, and at first glance, the show this year seems like a late-blooming show, but in the past few years, the whole leap-frog thing hasn't happened as much. Also, getting beaten by (an admittedly strong) Westwood in prelims at Houston was a bit concerning, although their 2+ point (nearly 3 point) gap with Reagan doesn't seem so bad after the Texas Marching Classic results, especially given how dirty (and incomplete) the show was at Houston. CTJ I feel very similarly about. The show at Austin was a mess visually, but there's so much life in this show, so much character and excitement, that there might be a late-season contender underneath the early-season dirt. And if you looked at the scores in Austin, you'd notice that they placed 1st in both individual performance captions, which has been a strength of theirs over the past few years. Clearly, at the field level, there's some magic going on.

 

So, yeah. I think we'll have to wait for San Antonio and Indianapolis to start getting a good picture of how this contest will shake out. And even then, as we learned in 2016, San Antonio results aren't always the best predictor of Nats results.

[justabandkid94]

Yikes, tons of typos. Glad I could help — I understand the confusion completely. I got frustrated with many bands when I competed in BOA, but I’ve really gained insight in retrospect. There’s are reason the adjudicators are seasoned veterans!

[vbassoon]

I think the slight problem with Leander is their drill/staging in the first half of the show, and how aforementioned, the judges not connecting with the show. It’ll grow for sure.

[LeanderMomma]

I think San Antonio will be far less predictable than Grand Nationals, and perhaps more exciting? Not that GN won’t be exciting because it WILL...just that I feel like the Super will be far more super than the Grand will be grand. Hopefully that made sense.

[TWHSParent]

I think San Antonio will be far less predictable than Grand Nationals, and perhaps more exciting? Not that GN won’t be exciting because it WILL...just that I feel like the Super will be far more super than the Grand will be grand. Hopefully that made sense.

 

I understand what you are trying to say. Maybe if bands like Rosemount and Lafayette decide to attend it will be a stronger field for making finals.

[LeanderMomma]

I understand what you are trying to say. Maybe if bands like Rosemount and Lafayette decide to attend it will be a stronger field for making finals.

Sounds like Rosemount has intentions to go next year.

[TWHSParent]

Sounds like Rosemount has intentions to go next year.

 

That's right. Maybe I was thinking of James Madison from VA?

[SpartanBandAlum]

James Madison seems to be entering late after their regional win earlier this season

[Vidal28]

I will say the discussions here are great in having people get what the landscape of marching band, well, the marching arts in general, is at the highest level and the demand in all aspects, music/sound design, and visual design that is also fully encompassed in GE and all that. With all that being said, I know what I, as an individual really enjoy and that is just being on the spectating ground level musical aspect of marching shows, to me all else is secondary, as ultimately, that is what I will always take away from a show that sticks with me long after their last performance is played. I know that’s how I ended up loving marching band and band in general and now doing music Ed in college, it’s an exciting prospect for me in the future to be able and be a part of designing a show that potentially can have an impact on others as shows that I’ve been a part of myself and the many that I’ve gotten to see here in the state of Texas. It’s something that I’ve truly appreciated over the years compared to what I‘ve seen elsewhere.

And not to say that a great visual design or overarching story, concept or theme to the show can’t augment the music we hear even more! Of course it can! hearing a lot about how the best bands that do that are the Indiana bands and other notable out of state groups, however, I wouldn’t want to sell our bands short, hopeless and left in the dust to match that. Still a month that all these incredible performers going to grand Nats have to show what the state of Texas is truly best at, in their music performance and ability to leave crowds truly speechless in the way I know they can, it’ll be amazing to see.

[justabandkid94]

Agreed, and no one is seeking to undermine or instill fear in the Texas bands. But, this fall, we have ended up in “why does Carmel keep winning??” discussions quite a bit, so I think a detailed analysis of Carmel has been warranted. Educating people on what Carmel is doing well, in turn, helps casual spectators develop a better understanding of the judging criteria and, even better, a refined sense of appreciation for bands who do things a little differently than we do in Texas

[LeanderMomma]

Agreed, and no one is seeking to undermine or instill fear in the Texas bands. But, this fall, we have ended up in “why does Carmel keep winning??” discussions quite a bit, so I think a detailed analysis of Carmel has been warranted. Educating people on what Carmel is doing well, in turn, helps casual spectators develop a better understanding of the judging criteria and, even better, a refined sense of appreciation for bands who do things a little differently than we do in Texas

I absolutely agree with this comment and my hope is that Texas will begin to comprehend what it is that makes groups like Carmel and Avon a notch above the rest of the country, and that we truly learn from it. I know I am probably the one most responsible in here for bringing the subject up, but I don’t apologize for that at all. I WANT to be educated on this subject and I want the band world down here to be more educated on it as well. You must learn from the best and adapt if you hope to someday become the best yourself. Do I want Texas to lose what it is that makes us unique? No. But I do feel like we still have more to learn.

 

And how about Avon this year?! I’m about to change my mind on Carmel winning it all this year and saying I think it’s going to be our lovely friends from Avon HS instead! And honestly, I’m okay with that.

 

My absolute goal here is for those of us attending GN this November to sit and FULLY appreciate the awesomeness of Avon and Carmel. I wasn’t able to do that last time because I knew next to nothing about them and I don’t ever want to underestimate either of them again.

[TWHSParent]

I absolutely agree with this comment and my hope is that Texas will begin to comprehend what it is that makes groups like Carmel and Avon a notch above the rest of the country, and that we truly learn from it. I know I am probably the one most responsible in here for bringing the subject up, but I don’t apologize for that at all. I WANT to be educated on this subject and I want the band world down here to be more educated on it as well. You must learn from the best and adapt if you hope to someday become the best yourself. Do I want Texas to lose what it is that makes us unique? No. But I do feel like we still have more to learn.

 

And how about Avon this year?! I’m about to change my mind on Carmel winning it all this year and saying I think it’s going to be our lovely friends from Avon HS instead! And honestly, I’m okay with that.

 

My absolute goal here is for those of us attending GN this November to sit and FULLY appreciate the awesomeness of Avon and Carmel. I wasn’t able to do that last time because I knew next to nothing about them and I don’t ever want to underestimate either of them again.

 

They aren't a notch above the rest of the country. What they do have is a very high level of consistency, they attend every year, and set a very high competitive floor that is required to be exceeded in order to win GN. We've all seen Avon not win, and most of us have seen Carmel not win, too. Carmel has had a run of shows that have melded with the right performers to make shows that win GN. 3 in a row is not unprecedented. While it is purely academic, most/many of the people we trust with informed opinions have stated that BA, FM, and TWHS in 2016 could/would have beaten Carmel. None of them attended GN that year. So it is really a combination of having a great show, and who the attendees are that may have shows that can beat yours.

 

So, just go out and do your best with the material you have. That is all the performers can do. The directors have to take the feedback they receive and adjust the show accordingly. That is why I think it is beneficial to have either a full or nearly full show for some of these early contests - the judges can give really pointed informed opinions about what they see for the whole thing.

[Vidal28]

They aren't a notch above the rest of the country. What they do have is a very high level of consistency, they attend every year, and set a very high competitive floor that is required to be exceeded in order to win GN. We've all seen Avon not win, and most of us have seen Carmel not win, too. Carmel has had a run of shows that have melded with the right performers to make shows that win GN. 3 in a row is not unprecedented. While it is purely academic, most/many of the people we trust with informed opinions have stated that BA, FM, and TWHS in 2016 could/would have beaten Carmel. None of them attended GN that year. So it is really a combination of having a great show, and who the attendees are that may have shows that can beat yours.

 

So, just go out and do your best with the material you have. That is all the performers can do. The directors have to take the feedback they receive and adjust the show accordingly. That is why I think it is beneficial to have either a full or nearly full show for some of these early contests - the judges can give really pointed informed opinions about what they see for the whole thing.

I very much agree that there isn’t a definitive ceiling that Texas bands have to reach to be able to compete with the likes of Avon and Carmel but the very floor that the talent of our bands demand to say, even make finals at BOA SA, much less win it. It’s not something the field of bands going to Grand Nats from here isn’t used to, from always having to improve and perfect their shows to be able to compete, and with the week and a half break in between SA and GN, it’s a great opportunity to actually have the time to implement the cherries on top that’ll make their shows really shine in Indy!

[LeanderMomma]

I’m definitely ready to see the Eagle come back to Texas. Y’all forgive me if I have come across otherwise or that I thought it was hopeless. Obviously it isn’t because it has happened before, and recently even. I didn’t mean to tear down any Texas bands and I sincerely hope that I have not come across that way. I will be more careful with my words in the future!

[SATXBandDad]

“A king's time as ruler rises and falls like the sun. One day, Texas band, the sun will set on Carmel’s time, and will rise with you as the new king.”

[LeanderMomma]

“A king's time as ruler rises and falls like the sun. One day, Texas band, the sun will set on Carmel’s time, and will rise with you as the new king.”

I see what you did there.

[LHSbandDad]

I guess I have been putting too much weight on my own "eyeball test".  I have always thought if it looked good (marching), sounded good (music), and made me feel good (emotion/GE) then it was a great show.  Back when my older two were in band Leander was a "bubble band" and when we did not make SA finals, my wife and I would watch the finals show and both agree that they all looked and sounded better than us and were ok with it.  Even now with my younger son having made finals consistently, I can still see a little separation from (XYZ) bands and know deep down we aren't going to beat them.  I thought I was sharpening my BOA knowledge and getting the hang of it until reading these explanations of why Carmel and Avon do so well.  I want to understand it and am trying, but when I watch it and listen to it, I just don't see the same separation from the rest of the pack.  I guess I still have a lot to learn or perhaps my "eyeball test" is flawed.  After all, I am not a BOA judge.....just trying to understand the process a little better.  Thanks to all for helping me and hopefully others learn!!

[SATXBandDad]

I see what you did there.

Haha...I said “Texas band” to make sure it was nice and neutral. I’m serious, I don’t care who wins. I want that Eagle in a Texas nest.

[TWHSParent]

I guess I have been putting too much weight on my own "eyeball test".  I have always thought if it looked good (marching), sounded good (music), and made me feel good (emotion/GE) then it was a great show.  Back when my older two were in band Leander was a "bubble band" and when we did not make SA finals, my wife and I would watch the finals show and both agree that they all looked and sounded better than us and were ok with it.  Even now with my younger son having made finals consistently, I can still see a little separation from (XYZ) bands and know deep down we aren't going to beat them.  I thought I was sharpening my BOA knowledge and getting the hang of it until reading these explanations of why Carmel and Avon do so well.  I want to understand it and am trying, but when I watch it and listen to it, I just don't see the same separation from the rest of the pack.  I guess I still have a lot to learn or perhaps my "eyeball test" is flawed.  After all, I am not a BOA judge.....just trying to understand the process a little better.  Thanks to all for helping me and hopefully others learn!!

 

Nothing wrong with your eyeball test. But sometimes we see what we want to see instead of what is really going on. That's why it is instructive to do what you did - take a look at what finished ahead.

 

The challenge with bands from other places is that they have a different approach. Texas really focuses on music, while other areas focus on visual and show production. Both ways are different approaches with the same goal. That's why Grand Nationals can be so interesting (and frustrating) - the different approaches all the bands take. Sometimes those of us here in Texas also need to get out more too, not just our friends in the midwest. Something about variety and spices......

[Nny14]

If you have the time you can read the BOA Adjudication Handbook on Music for Alls website. I was really curious what each part looks for and thought it was very informative.