2019 BOA Grand National Championships

[TWHSParent]

If you have the time you can read the BOA Adjudication Handbook on Music for Alls website. I was really curious what each part looks for and thought it was very informative.

 

I think many people develop narcolepsy when they read rulebooks. But you are so very right - it is very informative!

[Nny14]

I think many people develop narcolepsy when they read rulebooks. But you are so very right - it is very informative!

Yeah I was very bored at the time haha. Glad I did though!

[CTJBandPops]

“A king's time as ruler rises and falls like the sun. One day, Texas band, the sun will set on Carmel’s time, and will rise with you as the new king.”

   

 

might need to get a shirt made with that

[IndyTarHeel]

While it is purely academic, most/many of the people we trust with informed opinions have stated that BA, FM, and TWHS in 2016 could/would have beaten Carmel. None of them attended GN that year. So it is really a combination of having a great show, and who the attendees are that may have shows that can beat yours.

 

I understand your support of your local, region and state bands; however, let's not do that. Although it is an "informed" opinion, there is no way in Hades for anyone to prove that. The bands mentioned are great bands; however, in 2016, they didn't go head to head against Carmel and there is no evidence to suggest they would have won. Just like these "informed" individuals can state they would/could be Carmel in 2016, it can also be stated that those bands could/would have lost. Carolina played Clemson and lost. IF they would have played for the tie instead of the win, they could/would have won the game in overtime. See how easy it is to say something that could never be proven. You can not take the success of those bands in their respected 2016 competitions and transposed that into them beating Carmel at GN. Nothing supports it. No one knows how they would have performed, how the judges would have scored, whether there would have been a mishap, etc. The only thing we know is past history suggest all three bands could be or mostly likely would be finals bands. That's it and even then that is not a sure thing. Anything could happen. Other than that, I salute your support for your local band. I hope all bands perform their best and let the chips fall where they may. Respect.

[Samuel Culper]

I understand your support of your local, region and state bands; however, let's not do that. Although it is an "informed" opinion, there is no way in Hades for anyone to prove that. The bands mentioned are great bands; however, in 2016, they didn't go head to head against Carmel and there is no evidence to suggest they would have won. Just like these "informed" individuals can state they would/could be Carmel in 2016, it can also be stated that those bands could/would have lost. Carolina played Clemson and lost. IF they would have played for the tie instead of the win, they could/would have won the game in overtime. See how easy it is to say something that could never be proven. You can not take the success of those bands in their respected 2016 competitions and transposed that into them beating Carmel at GN. Nothing supports it. No one knows how they would have performed, how the judges would have scored, whether there would have been a mishap, etc. The only thing we know is past history suggest all three bands could be or mostly likely would be finals bands. That's it and even then that is not a sure thing. Anything could happen. Other than that, I salute your support for your local band. I hope all bands perform their best and let the chips fall where they may. Respect.

So, not offering opinions? Really?

 

That's just silly.

[An Inspirational Pinecone]

I understand your support of your local, region and state bands; however, let's not do that.

 

Other than that, I salute your support for your local band. I hope all bands perform their best and let the chips fall where they may. Respect.

I don't think you can really call those bands "local" just because they didn't perform at Nationals, or rather because they don't get the opportunity to perform at Nationals every year.

[TWHSParent]

I understand your support of your local, region and state bands; however, let's not do that. Although it is an "informed" opinion, there is no way in Hades for anyone to prove that. The bands mentioned are great bands; however, in 2016, they didn't go head to head against Carmel and there is no evidence to suggest they would have won. Just like these "informed" individuals can state they would/could be Carmel in 2016, it can also be stated that those bands could/would have lost. Carolina played Clemson and lost. IF they would have played for the tie instead of the win, they could/would have won the game in overtime. See how easy it is to say something that could never be proven. You can not take the success of those bands in their respected 2016 competitions and transposed that into them beating Carmel at GN. Nothing supports it. No one knows how they would have performed, how the judges would have scored, whether there would have been a mishap, etc. The only thing we know is past history suggest all three bands could be or mostly likely would be finals bands. That's it and even then that is not a sure thing. Anything could happen. Other than that, I salute your support for your local band. I hope all bands perform their best and let the chips fall where they may. Respect.

 

I believe I was quite clear when I used terms like "purely academic", "could/would", "didn't attend", etc. Your point was implicit in my comment (some may say it was actually explicit). To your other point about not making such comments, I will respectfully disagree. I am not hating on Carmel or any other band, just pointing out some facts regarding attendees and opinions regarding shows. Heck, I could say the same about TWHS in 2013 - I've heard the rumblings that if BA attended that year they would have won. This is not unique to Carmel 2016, and is part of the fun - imagining what-if scenarios.

 

Edited to clarify a point in the 4th sentence.

Edited October 16, 2019 by TWHSParent

[IndyTarHeel]

So, not offering opinions? Really?

 

That's just silly.

 

If that's your opinion.....lol. Missed the point. Why play the what if when you have no way of proving otherwise. It's silly to play that what if game. The three bands didn't participate at GN. They had fantastic shows that brought them "glory" and recognition in the competitions they did attend. That is all that really can be proven. Nothing wrong with that. I can fantasies about the what if Kenny Smith was not injured by an LSU player (UNC would have won another title)... or, what if Kendell Marshall didn't break his wrist (UNC could/would have won another title). Didn't happen so why go there? 

[IndyTarHeel]

I don't think you can really call those bands "local" just because they didn't perform at Nationals, or rather because they don't get the opportunity to perform at Nationals every year.

 

Not calling them local. Saying that it is great to support your local bands. I know they are bands that compete nationally. All are top 10 national bands.

[11BandMan11]

*Grabs bag of popcorn to eat while reading this discussion*

[IndyTarHeel]

I believe I was quite clear when I used terms like "purely academic", "could/would", "didn't attend", etc. Your point was implicit in my comment (some may say it was actually explicit). To your other point about not making such comments, I will respectfully disagree. I am not hating on Carmel or any other band, just pointing out some facts regarding attendees and opinions regarding shows. Heck, I could say the same about TWHS in 2013 - I've heard the rumblings that if BA attended that year they would have won. This is not unique to Carmel 2016, and is part of the fun - imagining what-if scenarios.

 

Edited to clarify a point in the 4th sentence.

 

Sure, I didn't gloss over those terms but really, why take it there? Is it really fun? Watching you tube clips of past performances certainly bring into question whether band x would/could beat that year's champion. And yes, it applies to all champions... the speculation regarding what bands could/would have done. However, what does it really accomplish? Does it cheapen the champion's "shine"? By all means, speculate away. To be honest, I wish there was some sort of stipend where each state could send their respected champion in all classes to GNs. 

[Samuel Culper]

So, we're going to stress over people speculating over "What if?" discussions?  For somebody apparently from Indiana - where top bands have much easier access to GNats and many of them go EVERY SINGLE YEAR - this comes off as defensive as all get-out.

 

There is a significant population of band fans in Texas who believe credibly that the distribution of Eagles would look very different if the top bands here were able to compete every year at GNats.  The reality is very different, obviously.  But the "what if" game is completely natural.  Those Indiana bands have the good fortune to know that their best shows will make it to GNats.  Always.  Bands down here have to plan such a trip a year or two in advance and then see how the roll of the dice plays out.  As it is, the top band at S.A. has not been to Indy since 2013.  As we know, that band won in Indy as well.  Since then the top placer in S.A. to go on to Indy was 4th in S.A. and finished 3rd in Indy.

 

I would suggest that if such What If talk offends you then you probably ought to find some other place to hang out.  I don't see folks around here denying human nature in speculation in order to keep from offending your sensibilities.

 

Have a great day!

[TWHSParent]

Sure, I didn't gloss over those terms but really, why take it there? Is it really fun? Watching you tube clips of past performances certainly bring into question whether band x would/could beat that year's champion. And yes, it applies to all champions... the speculation regarding what bands could/would have done. However, what does it really accomplish? Does it cheapen the champion's "shine"? By all means, speculate away.

 

Why not take it there? Seems that some humans like to run possibilities through our heads, and we gain some enjoyment, or at least distraction, from it. So yes, many people would consider it fun. They could also consider it educational to spend the time reviewing the shows and learning what each band did, and how the judging panels reacted and then extrapolating from that.

 

Was the intent to tarnish someone's shine? Well, I suppose you read it that way. If you consider the larger string of comments and really consider the context, perhaps you will come up with a different take on the intent. Or perhaps not - that is an exercise left up to the reader.

[IndyTarHeel]

So, we're going to stress over people speculating over "What if?" discussions?  For somebody apparently from Indiana - where top bands have much easier access to GNats and many of them go EVERY SINGLE YEAR - this comes off as defensive as all get-out.

 

There is a significant population of band fans in Texas who believe credibly that the distribution of Eagles would look very different if the top bands here were able to compete every year at GNats.  The reality is very different, obviously.  But the "what if" game is completely natural.  Those Indiana bands have the good fortune to know that their best shows will make it to GNats.  Always.  Bands down here have to plan such a trip a year or two in advance and then see how the roll of the dice plays out.  As it is, the top band at S.A. has not been to Indy since 2013.  As we know, that band won in Indy as well.  Since then the top placer in S.A. to go on to Indy was 4th in S.A. and finished 3rd in Indy.

 

I would suggest that if such What If talk offends you then you probably ought to find some other place to hang out.  I don't see folks around here denying human nature in speculation in order to keep from offending your sensibilities.

 

Have a great day!

 

Wow!!! Assume much? Defensive about what? Maybe it is the scientist in me that can not look at x and automatically assume x will be successful because band y won years ago after winning SA; AND, band z finished 4th at SA but finished 3rd at Indy. Unless all parameters are the same in SA and GN, why would I ever conclude what you are suggesting? Again, speculate on. It is human nature after all. And, it is fun to think how team x, band x or whomever would stack up against a worthy opponent. But to come to a conclusion based on success at different contest under different conditions and parameters is flawed thinking at best. By the way, thanks for the suggestion; however, I will decline. No offense taken and you have a great day as well.  

[LostChoirGuy]

Just to stir the pot a little bit more, maybe instead of saying the responsibility is on every single band to go to GNats to compete for the title, Carmel should come down to San Antonio to prove their mettle. Carmel didnt come to San Antonio in 2016, so they werent the champion, there. The way this competition is, I'm beginning to think of that champion more as the national champ these days. It goes both ways in my book! Haha

 

 

Also, I will watch Flower Mound 2016 over and over until the day I die. It is a large part of the reason I follow marching band so vehemently.

[josephbandfan]

Where does everyone think Park Vista will place?

[IndyTarHeel]

Why not take it there? Seems that some humans like to run possibilities through our heads, and we gain some enjoyment, or at least distraction, from it. So yes, many people would consider it fun. They could also consider it educational to spend the time reviewing the shows and learning what each band did, and how the judging panels reacted and then extrapolating from that.

 

Was the intent to tarnish someone's shine? Well, I suppose you read it that way. If you consider the larger string of comments and really consider the context, perhaps you will come up with a different take on the intent. Or perhaps not - that is an exercise left up to the reader.

 

I can see where it may lead to an educational opportunity. I also can see where it could lead to some people taking offense (by the way, no offense on my part... just making an observation as to where  that sort of speculation could lead). 

 

Of course it is up to the reader's interpretation. And of course supporters of their local bands will be bias for towards their local bands. Anyway, no offense was taken. Just throwing out an observation. Hope all of the bands have great seasons and hope to see an very interesting GN. Now, back to "lurking" and no commenting.

[IndyTarHeel]

Just to stir the pot a little bit more, maybe instead of saying the responsibility is on every single band to go to GNats to compete for the title, Carmel should come down to San Antonio to prove their mettle. Carmel didnt come to San Antonio in 2016, so they werent the champion, there. The way this competition is, I'm beginning to think of that champion more as the national champ these days. It goes both ways in my book! Haha

 

 

Also, I will watch Flower Mound 2016 over and over until the day I die. It is a large part of the reason I follow marching band so vehemently.

 

Trust, I am a fan of the activity as well. Started marching in the 8th grade way back in '82. After graduating from high school, I have followed marching bands at every move. Leonardo's Dream is an incredible show. 

 

GN is where the activity "crowns" its champion, not SA. Kinda like the World Series. All of the world's baseball teams are not playing for the title but some how the sport crowns its champion with who participates. It is what it is. Maybe BOA should look into getting the champions of each regional stipends so that they can attend and the argument could end. If your band doesn't in a regional, then attending GN is on your own dime.

[TWHSParent]

I can see where it may lead to an educational opportunity. I also can see where it could lead to some people taking offense (by the way, no offense on my part... just making an observation as to where  that sort of speculation could lead). 

 

Of course it is up to the reader's interpretation. And of course supporters of their local bands will be bias for towards their local bands. Anyway, no offense was taken. Just throwing out an observation. Hope all of the bands have great seasons and hope to see an very interesting GN. Now, back to "lurking" and no commenting.

 

I am not offended in the least. I love debating - it keeps the mental faculties sharp, and makes one consider words more carefully. A respectful debate is pretty much always welcome with me. I'm an old, cantankerous, crotchety, get-off-my lawn type that really appreciates intelligent discourse. I'm not always right, or is that, I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken?

 

Now, I will respond to your last comment about bias, as that is a double edged sword, which I believe you know full well. What I would suggest is that you make clear your bias (your screen name does some of that - but are you from Indiana living in North Carolina, or vice versa?), and there will be much more respect on that front. We are all able to account for bias, and we have no problem with someone who thinks a reputation is being impugned and stepping in to attempt to rectify the situation. I think in this case it was a false alarm, but I can understand the position from which you are speaking. Speaking for myself, don't go completely silent - we all need to be jarred from our thought patterns from time to time, and outside opinions can do just that.

[LeanderMomma]

I honestly did not read IndyTarHeel's first comment as defensive.  I thought he had a valid point in that we have no way of knowing if a Texas band would have won if they had sent their best in 2016 or whatever year for that matter.  However, I do think it is completely ridiculous NOT to think that we will speculate on the "what ifs" on the years our best shows didn't go to Indy.  That's only human and this is a forum after all.  

 

I also agree with Mr. TarHeel that what desperately needs to happen at some point is where all of our Regional and Super Regional top 3 to 5 (or more?) take each other on at some point.  Say, the following year?  So that there's enough time to plan for it.  

 

I would like to see more discourse here from folks outside of Texas.  In fact, I encourage it!  That's one of the biggest reasons I enjoy the HornRank forums so much.  It gets me out of my Texas bubble.  I mean, don't get me wrong, I like my Texas bubble!    But sometimes I need to hear an outsiders view point as well.  

[CTJBandPops]

IndyTarHeel - appreciate your insight, it just sparks up this discussion board so it just makes TXBands stronger  and a lot more fun     -

 

I think the point was never that the BOA SA  winner going to Grand Nats would ensure a victory against Carmel, Avon or anyone else - it was more a point that the Texas Bands are at a disadvantage in the competition for the Eagle that provides known national programs like Avon and Carmel an advantage of the cost to attend every year.  In addition to the cost, there is the advantage sleeping in your own bed at night - VS a 4+ day road trip - in some cases traveling in a charter bus for 24 hours - EACH way to compete.

 

Let's talk cost - Gnats trips cost a Texas program $400K+ to compete - this is above and beyond the cost to compete in their scheduled "local" competitions - that may exceed and additional  $400K - you may notice - big state - lots of travel costs and sometimes hotels. Not sure what your funding looks like - but in Texas - this is funded by boosters and parent/band fees

 

keep in mind - in 2007 - LD Bell won the Eagle. - they performed every year from 2005 - 2010 in Grand Nats and took a medal every year. in addition to the 2007 gold, the won silver in 2006, 2008,2009 and bronze in 2005 and 2010

 

The Woodlands - - in 2013 they won gold - they attended 5 Grand Nats in 8 years - with 3 4th place finishes in addition to the gold

 

I will ignore the challenges of the 8 hours rule that Texas UIL imposes on our programs.

 

I think that the point that others have made on this site is that there is an advantage to being close enough to home that it cost nothing and you can take all players - many others programs have to stretch out their performance years based on planning for the cost and in some cases, cut the team that they take due to their ability to pay for a trip that is cost prohibitive for their family situation - 

 

most programs attend on a 4-5 year schedule and if you look at the programs that do make the trek - BOA SA is in many ways a stronger competition, and has earned the title of "Grand Nats of the South" 

[IndyTarHeel]

I am not offended in the least. I love debating - it keeps the mental faculties sharp, and makes one consider words more carefully. A respectful debate is pretty much always welcome with me. I'm an old, cantankerous, crotchety, get-off-my lawn type that really appreciates intelligent discourse. I'm not always right, or is that, I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken?

 

Now, I will respond to your last comment about bias, as that is a double edged sword, which I believe you know full well. What I would suggest is that you make clear your bias (your screen name does some of that - but are you from Indiana living in North Carolina, or vice versa?), and there will be much more respect on that front. We are all able to account for bias, and we have no problem with someone who thinks a reputation is being impugned and stepping in to attempt to rectify the situation. I think in this case it was a false alarm, but I can understand the position from which you are speaking. Speaking for myself, don't go completely silent - we all need to be jarred from our thought patterns from time to time, and outside opinions can do just that.

 

I am from NC, by way of GA, and living in Indy since '03. I started marching in the 8th grade in GA and continued when my family moved to NC. Unfortunately, NC band was not that great and I stopped marching after high school. Once I graduated from college, I continued my interest in marching band by attending local competitions. Living in FL, GA, NC and now IN, I have kept up with my love for marching band and was quite happy to be in a region with high quality marching bands. It's kinda of funny, because while I lived in Tampa, I was a stones throw away from Tarpon Springs and Seminole High Schools. Got to see them march at local competitions way back in the late '90s. 

 

It is a shame what state government have done to school budgets and I only hope that some since will prevail so that kids can participate in an activity that has shown beneficial to academic achievement. 

[CTJBandPops]

I honestly did not read IndyTarHeel's first comment as defensive.  I thought he had a valid point in that we have no way of knowing if a Texas band would have won if they had sent their best in 2016 or whatever year for that matter.  However, I do think it is completely ridiculous NOT to think that we will speculate on the "what ifs" on the years our best shows didn't go to Indy.  That's only human and this is a forum after all.  

 

I also agree with Mr. TarHeel that what desperately needs to happen at some point is where all of our Regional and Super Regional top 3 to 5 (or more?) take each other on at some point.  Say, the following year?  So that there's enough time to plan for it.  

 

I would like to see more discourse here from folks outside of Texas.  In fact, I encourage it!  That's one of the biggest reasons I enjoy the HornRank forums so much.  It gets me out of my Texas bubble.  I mean, don't get me wrong, I like my Texas bubble!    But sometimes I need to hear an outsiders view point as well.  

but even with support the following year - that does not address the issue of a great show one year that does not do well the next - the argument is flawed.

 

look at a program that did well one year - can you guarantee a great show the next year - unlike football that the championships are in that same season with the same team - Bands will start over every year - new show - same objective

[IndyTarHeel]

IndyTarHeel - appreciate your insight, it just sparks up this discussion board so it just makes TXBands stronger  and a lot more fun     -

 

I think the point was never that the BOA SA  winner going to Grand Nats would ensure a victory against Carmel, Avon or anyone else - it was more a point that the Texas Bands are at a disadvantage in the competition for the Eagle that provides known national programs like Avon and Carmel an advantage of the cost to attend every year.  In addition to the cost, there is the advantage sleeping in your own bed at night - VS a 4+ day road trip - in some cases traveling in a charter bus for 24 hours - EACH way to compete.

 

Let's talk cost - Gnats trips cost a Texas program $400K+ to compete - this is above and beyond the cost to compete in their scheduled "local" competitions - that may exceed and additional  $400K - you may notice - big state - lots of travel costs and sometimes hotels. Not sure what your funding looks like - but in Texas - this is funded by boosters and parent/band fees

 

keep in mind - in 2007 - LD Bell won the Eagle. - they performed every year from 2005 - 2010 in Grand Nats and took a medal every year. in addition to the 2007 gold, the won silver in 2006, 2008,2009 and bronze in 2005 and 2010

 

The Woodlands - - in 2013 they won gold - they attended 5 Grand Nats in 8 years - with 3 4th place finishes in addition to the gold

 

I will ignore the challenges of the 8 hours rule that Texas UIL imposes on our programs.

 

I think that the point that others have made on this site is that there is an advantage to being close enough to home that it cost nothing and you can take all players - many others programs have to stretch out their performance years based on planning for the cost and in some cases, cut the team that they take due to their ability to pay for a trip that is cost prohibitive for their family situation - 

 

most programs attend on a 4-5 year schedule and if you look at the programs that do make the trek - BOA SA is in many ways a stronger competition, and has earned the title of "Grand Nats of the South" 

 

I completely understand. As much as I love Avon, I only wish that they would travel more. I wish they would venture out past the IN state line a lot more than they have. It is all local. Louisville isn't that far of a trip. In fact, neither is Dayton, St, Louis, Clarksville,TN nor NC. 

[LeanderMomma]

Where does everyone think Park Vista will place?

 

This made me laugh for some reason.  Nothing to do with Park Vista of course.  Just the placement of this comment amongst all of the vehement dialogue.