Grand Nats North and Grand Nats South

[CTJBandPops]

O.K. - so I am going to reopen the wound - as I know that this has been hashed about in the past - But... that was a discussion of San Antonio replacing G Nats or making G Nats irrelevant....

 

I would still say that SA is more competitive and that was again proven last year with many moving up from SA to GNats - I have heard all the "peaking at the right time" comments - but tell me that any of the bands that were going to Gnat would not have wanted to peak in SA? - and how much more drill time did they get between SA and GNats with the travel requirement?????

 

results speak

Avon moved from 4th in SA to 3rd in GNats

Marcus Moved from 7th in SA to 4th in GNats

FloMo moved from 6th in SA to 5th In GNats

TWHS moved from 11th in SA to 7th in GNats

RRock moved from 18th (no finals) in SA to 12th in GNats

Churchill moved from 21st (no final) in SA to 16th (semis) in GNats

 

so how much is the extra week and how much is based on the level of competition in SA VS Indy ????

 

BUT - What about a Grand Nats North (Indy) and South (San Antonio) 

 

while this is not ideal, there will never be an ideal process in the world of Marching Arts - due to the cost of travel and the lead time for planning, this could be as close as we get to a real national championship.

 

Consider this - the recent expansion of the super regionals has the following bands signed up for 2018 season

- Indy 68 bands (same as last year)

- St Louis 77 Bands (Up from 65 last year)

- San Antonio - 87 Bands - (21 more bands than what was scheduled for last year)

 

while St Louis increase could be a pick up from the Atlanta cancellation - San Antonio continues to grow - at some point they will have to add another day (Thursday) and have a 2 day prelims - you can only take away so many breaks, before you run out of daylight.

 

I believe the only thing that keeps this from happening is the loss of Texas Bands in Indy - though I still think we will see many programs make that trek in off-state years - what would be better than winning both Grand Nats South and then Grand Nats North?

 

I don't think it is a matter of if, but when they will expand San Antonio into the same format as GNats due to the size of the competition

 

I think that having a North and South would allow more bands to compete on a routine basis - not just when they can afford to do to Indy - the question is how do you come up with a final ranking based on 2 different locations

 

how many times have you thought - what if they could take that show to Indy????    - this could end that..

 

I welcome the discussion

 

 

 

 

 

[principalagent]

Just like there aren’t two Super Bowls or two Olympics, two Grand National competitions wouldn’t work. There are notable logistics problems - The Alamodome lot can barely fit 70 trailers and over 300 buses; 100 and 450 would be a nightmare. And while I agree that the competition is at least comparable if not stronger in SA, SA is still pretty much Texas only, while GN attracts a broader range. Indianapolis is still functionally more central in the context of the country, and only the West Coast bands and the Oklahoma bands get an easier drive (with it being a wash because it only cuts a couple hours for the latter and American Fork the CA/HI bands flying).

 

Finally, the reality is that even a very average quality middle class demographics at best Texas band has more resources than many GN semifinalists. Texas has more money to bear the burden of the trip. It just seems that lately, those resources have been spent on the incorrect years. But, largely, a GN in Texas would be probably 80% Texas bands and perhaps more. For a national circuit, I don’t think that is productive

[Samuel Culper]

If you think about the geography of the country in terms of where the most, best marching bands are located, instead of overall population or state lines, then SA makes at least as much sense as a "central" location as Indianapolis. More ideal would probably be DFW or St. Louis. But there are other concerns, such as a facility capable of handling the larger number of bands.

 

But, the fact is that nothing is going to change. GNats will stay where it is, bands geographically close to Indy will continue to benefit, and the argument over this topic will go on.

 

The fact is that the competition at SA is much deeper. That is testament to the great number of really high quality bands in Texas and something we Texans can take pride in (as we are want to do in any competitive arena). We will continue to enjoy referring to SA as the OTHER Grand Nationals and take out small pleasure at how it annoys others in Ohio, Indiana, etc.

 

And hopefully next year we will send a big contingent of Texas bands to Indy to make some really big noise!

[LeanderMomma]

Maybe what they need to do is change the name of BOA SA to Grand Nats South and of Indy to Grand Nats North.  There just isn't a truly valid argument for canceling the Indy GN event and moving it all to Texas, other than how brilliant the Texas competition has come to be.  It really just isn't feasible to move everyone down to South Texas for one big event.  And San Antonio can not compare to Indianapolis when it comes to hosting such a large event.  The Alamodome is great and all, but they do not have the massive indoor practice rooms available to them that Lucas Oil provides due to being connected via underground tunnels to the Convention Center.  Also, there are *many* large hotels in downtown Indy that can house all of the bands, but that would be quite a challenge for San Antonio.  And in Indy, you do not have to transport those kids from their hotels to Lucas Oil because they can literally just walk there.  Finally, there are a huge amount of restaurants available within walking distance of Lucas Oil, and that is just not the case in San Antonio.  Indianapolis and Lucas Oil have the perfect mix of simply EVERYTHING that is needed to make Grand Nats the monstrous event that it has come to be.  As a Texan it hurts me to say this, but after experiencing Grand Nationals first hand, I will admit that it truly is pretty close to perfect just the way it is, which is in Indianapolis.  

 

One thing I have noticed that both events have in common is that the list of finalists don't really change that much.  The top bands at Indy (minus any Texas groups) seem to pretty much stay the same with a few changes from year to year, and the same goes for San Antonio.  There are always a few changes every year in finals, but for the most part, the group of overall finalists doesn't change all that much.  They really are both a showcase of the very best in the country, and we should not feel at all slighted by the fact that GN is not held in Texas.  

[whitewing09]

Unfortunately, we just don't have the venue to provide that grand nationals experience. As much as I hate to say it, Lucas Oil is built perfectly for that. I can't think of a stadium in Texas that can compete in terms of quality and logistics. What would be cool is if it weren't such a financial burden for Texas programs to go to G'Nats. Would love to see lesser known Texas programs in Semis.

 

SA should at least be like a... mega regional. For at least the past 5 years, a finalist at SA would have undoubtedly been a finalist at any other regional; I'd argue that the reverse is definitely not true. Heck, you could probably argue that top 10 at SA would have been a medal at any of the other regionals last year.

 

For the foreseeable Texas will only have the informal title of "Grand Nationals of the South". I feel like that joke has been made enough by officials enough for it to stick

[CTJBandPops]

Just like there aren’t two Super Bowls or two Olympics, two Grand National competitions wouldn’t work. There are notable logistics problems - The Alamodome lot can barely fit 70 trailers and over 300 buses; 100 and 450 would be a nightmare. And while I agree that the competition is at least comparable if not stronger in SA, SA is still pretty much Texas only, while GN attracts a broader range. Indianapolis is still functionally more central in the context of the country, and only the West Coast bands and the Oklahoma bands get an easier drive (with it being a wash because it only cuts a couple hours for the latter and American Fork the CA/HI bands flying).

 

Finally, the reality is that even a very average quality middle class demographics at best Texas band has more resources than many GN semifinalists. Texas has more money to bear the burden of the trip. It just seems that lately, those resources have been spent on the incorrect years. But, largely, a GN in Texas would be probably 80% Texas bands and perhaps more. For a national circuit, I don’t think that is productive

there are 87 bands listed this year for BOA SA and a push to allow more - so the 70 Bands/Trailers is going to be debunked in the next 60 days - and by spreading it out with a 2 day prelims, it can address the space issues - it is my understanding that BOA SA last year already shifted the parking issues and the buses/trailers are no longer parked throughout the event and cannot show up more that 2 hours prior to warm up times.

there are plenty of resources in San Antonio to address the needs and it still ties in well with the UIL happening a few days later. I am confident that MFA will never give up having it in Indy - Pro stadium with convention center attached and such, but they will need to address (as we saw this year) the expansion of San Antonio SR - it is already more competitive and at some point may likely become larger.  

The middle class demographics being what they are, I doubt there is any more public funds going into our Texas programs and the cost of those trips to Indy is bore by parents and they may continue to find a better way to spend those funds - a trip out of state to Tournament of Roses, Macys' or even out of country to preform may hold a bigger appeal - or just traveling to other regionals and accept that their season ends in SA with BOA and/or UIL. 

I do not see MFA/BOA allowing that to happen - if Texas bands start opting for that and we see the same 3-4 bands taking turns in Indy winning Grand Nats it also becomes meaningless

 

just my thoughts - I dont see it as an if - but rather a "when it happens

[CTJBandPops]

Maybe what they need to do is change the name of BOA SA to Grand Nats South and of Indy to Grand Nats North.  There just isn't a truly valid argument for canceling the Indy GN event and moving it all to Texas, other than how brilliant the Texas competition has come to be.  It really just isn't feasible to move everyone down to South Texas for one big event.  And San Antonio can not compare to Indianapolis when it comes to hosting such a large event.  The Alamodome is great and all, but they do not have the massive indoor practice rooms available to them that Lucas Oil provides due to being connected via underground tunnels to the Convention Center.  Also, there are *many* large hotels in downtown Indy that can house all of the bands, but that would be quite a challenge for San Antonio.  And in Indy, you do not have to transport those kids from their hotels to Lucas Oil because they can literally just walk there.  Finally, there are a huge amount of restaurants available within walking distance of Lucas Oil, and that is just not the case in San Antonio.  Indianapolis and Lucas Oil have the perfect mix of simply EVERYTHING that is needed to make Grand Nats the monstrous event that it has come to be.  As a Texan it hurts me to say this, but after experiencing Grand Nationals first hand, I will admit that it truly is pretty close to perfect just the way it is, which is in Indianapolis.  

 

One thing I have noticed that both events have in common is that the list of finalists don't really change that much.  The top bands at Indy (minus any Texas groups) seem to pretty much stay the same with a few changes from year to year, and the same goes for San Antonio.  There are always a few changes every year in finals, but for the most part, the group of overall finalists doesn't change all that much.  They really are both a showcase of the very best in the country, and we should not feel at all slighted by the fact that GN is not held in Texas.  

again - - my proposal was not to do away with Indy - but to separate to a North and South - I do not see Indy going away - great venue and it is in MFA back yard - but rather to identify San Antonio as an equal to the Indy competition and provide it the same value to those wins

you stated my same point - with the exception of the Texas bands, Indy is a lot of the same players year in and year out - just as SA is - why not have a national title for both.....

[Nny14]

 

why not have a national title for both.....

Because then it's not a national title.

[TWHSParent]

Hmmm. How do you address that San Antonio is the absolute definition of a Super Regional? We get what, 1 out of state band per year to attend? There is nothing "national" about that attendee list. How would that be addressed?

[FEDude]

Does anyone have the number of times the SA winner has gone to GN?

I think Westfield won SA in 2003 then won GN.

Reagan should've won GN 2005, would've won in 2004 if they'd gone

LD Bell should've won GN 2006

I think LD Bell won SA 2008, and 2009 (please check me on that). The Avon show those years were very good and I think the right band won GN

Woodlands of course won SA and GN.

After that I honestly stopped keeping track.

[LeanderMomma]

again - - my proposal was not to do away with Indy - but to separate to a North and South - I do not see Indy going away - great venue and it is in MFA back yard - but rather to identify San Antonio as an equal to the Indy competition and provide it the same value to those wins

you stated my same point - with the exception of the Texas bands, Indy is a lot of the same players year in and year out - just as SA is - why not have a national title for both.....

 

you are so right about San Antonio being an equal to Indianapolis, if not more stacked.  I'm just not sure how they would do a national title for both, but I would not be opposed to a North and a South competition.  We might get more bands from California, Oklahoma and surrounding areas if that were the case.  

[CTJBandPops]

Because then it's not a national title.

college football has had a national champion for years and a ranking system without actually playing each other - so maybe it is a Northern Champion and a Southern Champion

this year there is only 1 Texas band in Indy - with Texas the largest state with some of the largest Programs - how do you call that a national champion either

 

there were 17 BOA Regionals in 2017 and 3 Super Regionals - 6 of those winners attended GN

there were 5 Regionals and the SA Super Regional in Texas - none of those winners attended Indy

 

the Past 13 Grand Nats have been won by 6 programs. with the exception of Bell in 2007 and TWHS in 2013 all the others are regular if not annual participants

Carmel (4) Broken Arrow (4) Avon (2) and Tarpon Springs (1)

 

again - most Texas programs plan for these events 2+ years in advance 

[CTJBandPops]

you are so right about San Antonio being an equal to Indianapolis, if not more stacked.  I'm just not sure how they would do a national title for both, but I would not be opposed to a North and a South competition.  We might get more bands from California, Oklahoma and surrounding areas if that were the case.  

I think this would bring more out of state programs to San Antonio to compete

[Nny14]

college football has had a national champion for years and a ranking system without actually playing each other - so maybe it is a Northern Champion and a Southern Champion

this year there is only 1 Texas band in Indy - with Texas the largest state with some of the largest Programs - how do you call that a national champion either

 

there were 17 BOA Regionals in 2017 and 3 Super Regionals - 6 of those winners attended GN

there were 5 Regionals and the SA Super Regional in Texas - none of those winners attended Indy

 

the Past 13 Grand Nats have been won by 6 programs. with the exception of Bell in 2007 and TWHS in 2013 all the others are regular if not annual participants

Carmel (4) Broken Arrow (4) Avon (2) and Tarpon Springs (1)

 

again - most Texas programs plan for these events 2+ years in advance

Ok. Almost all the bands at San Antonio are from Texas so it's even less diverse than nationals. Maybe if more Southern groups come to SA then this could be considered.

[CTJBandPops]

Does anyone have the number of times the SA winner has gone to GN?

I think Westfield won SA in 2003 then won GN.

Reagan should've won GN 2005, would've won in 2004 if they'd gone

LD Bell should've won GN 2006

I think LD Bell won SA 2008, and 2009 (please check me on that). The Avon show those years were very good and I think the right band won GN

Woodlands of course won SA and GN.

After that I honestly stopped keeping track.

going back 13 seasons to 2005 is as follows

2005 - Reagan Won SA - Went to GN - finished second

2006 - LD Bell Won SA - Went to GN - finished second

2007 - Marcus won SA - Bell finished 2nd - Marcus did not go - Bell went to GN and brought home the Eagle

2008 - LD Bell Won SA - Went to GN - finished second

2009 - LD Bell Won SA - Went to GN - finished second

2010 - Marcus won SA - did not go to GN

2011 - LD Bell won SA - did not go to GN

2012 - Marcus won SA - did not go to GN

2013 - TWHS won SA - went to GN and brought home the Eagle

2014 - CTJ won SA - did not go to GN

2015 - FloMo won SA - did not go to GN

2016 - FloMo won SA - did not go to GN

2017 - CTJ won SA - did not go to GN

not saying that a win at SA is a Gnats win - but It is likely a medal at the least - and less and less are making that trek if you look at the trend

 

since 2009, the only band to win BOA SA and go to GNats was TWHS and they brought home the Eagle.

[whitewing09]

Remember when Hebron went from 4th at SA to Class Champ GNat Semis and 3rd in Finals. So.bitter.sweet.

[TWHSParent]

Also, if something like this was to be worked out, there must be a better distribution of the smaller schools. Right now Texas is super strong in AAA and AAAA, but relatively woeful in AA and A. Maybe most of those on this board aren't too concerned with those classes, as only Tarpon and Marian compete at the absolute highest level, but Texas can't compete with North Hardin or Grain Valley, or with Adair or Norton. So in order to be considered a national level event, there has to be a much larger national presence across all classes. Doable? Yes. But does that mean San Antonio loses its current identity as the Texas Championship as adding the out of state bands means we hit a cap and start losing the Texas bands? At the top level, San Antonio is now equal to Grand Nationals, but it does not match Grand Nationals across the full spectrum of the competitive marching arts, and falls very short in the smaller school categories.

[LeanderMomma]

Remember when Hebron went from 4th at SA to Class Champ GNat Semis and 3rd in Finals. So.bitter.sweet.

Remember the saxiest solo ever played on a BOA field...

[CTJBandPops]

Also, if something like this was to be worked out, there must be a better distribution of the smaller schools. Right now Texas is super strong in AAA and AAAA, but relatively woeful in AA and A. Maybe most of those on this board aren't too concerned with those classes, as only Tarpon and Marian compete at the absolute highest level, but Texas can't compete with North Hardin or Grain Valley, or with Adair or Norton. So in order to be considered a national level event, there has to be a much larger national presence across all classes. Doable? Yes. But does that mean San Antonio loses its current identity as the Texas Championship as adding the out of state bands means we hit a cap and start losing the Texas bands? At the top level, San Antonio is now equal to Grand Nationals, but it does not match Grand Nationals across the full spectrum of the competitive marching arts, and falls very short in the smaller school categories.

I agree and all the more reason to structure the 2 events alike. the hard part of that is that Texas has some "lesser programs" - and I apologize for that term, that do not make finals, but have 250+ members. that scares off some of the smaller  school programs. do they create a program that is structured for the smaller schools? like UIL?

[CTJBandPops]

Remember when Hebron went from 4th at SA to Class Champ GNat Semis and 3rd in Finals. So.bitter.sweet.

and in 2014 when FloMo went from 13th in San Antonio to 6th in Grand Nats finals - those are the movements that make the argument for SA being a deeper and tougher field

 

as these kinds of results continue, if I were a band director, why would I ask students/parents to pay the additional funds ($1K each) and time out of class for a lesser competition. instead, would I ask them to spend their money elsewhere..

 

MFA/BOA sees the growth in Texas and that is why we continue to see the addition of more BOA events  - like the addition of Austin, MC Allen, Midland and Waco over the past 8-10 years. they know where their audience is at and again, this is just my thoughts, but I think this is a conversation that is already in play outside of Texas