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Relevance of BOA Grand Nationals


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I know this will not be a popular discussion, but as the
season is over, it will give us something to chew on till next year.

 

I wanted to touch on a few facts, while the finals just
finished at Gnats – and I have not looked at the data for the past few years –
I am intrigued by a statement made earlier on the BOA San Antonio Super
Regional blog that SA is in fact a stronger competition – and felt it needed to
be explored

 

So here is the question – with Avon coming to San Antonio in 2017 – will we see more bands, such as Carmel (as they did in 2002) or even
Broken Arrow or other national players (Castle/Union/ Marian Catholic) start making the trip to San Antonio?

 

Will it make Grand Nats irreverent?

 

As we have seen in the past, while there is another week of prep that will change the results – BUT the variance between SA and GNats is
significant – while it is a nicer facility - will it impact the results??

 

I post the following with no disrespect to any program – just stating the facts as they are
presented

 

                  San Antonio Results                                       G Nats Results

 

Round Rock                        Missed finals - 18th place                               Finals 12th place

 

Woodlands                         11th Place in SA                                              7th in Gnats 1 +Point + increase

 

FloMo                                  6th Place in SA                                               5th in Gnats 1 +Point + increase

 

Marcus                                7thPlace in SA                                                4thin Gnats 2 +Point + increase

 

Avon                                    4thPlace in SA                                                3rd in Gnats 1 +Point + increase

 

If there becomes a rush to come to San Antonio - will that degrade the value of the Grand Nationals?  there is so many high quality, top notch bands that do not make the trip to Indy, just due to the cost of the trip, will it impact the results

 

just another FYI - there were 18 of the top 30 bands (per Horn Rank) in San Antonio SR - and only 12 ranked bands in Grand Nationals -  

 

Thoughts???

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I highly doubt that the flood gates will open and you will suddenly see a ton of big name programs from out of state show up at the San Antonio Super Regional.  Even though San Antonio is freakin' awesome, it is still just a Super Regional and Grand Nationals still has the allure of being hosted in the Marching Band Capital of The World.  Grand Nationals won't lose its level of awesomeness because of the sheer variety of bands, both stylistically and geographically, that attend.  

 

In turn, there are some really awesome Texas programs that you may never see at Grand Nationals.  You'd be surprised how many programs in Texas feel that the Super Regional is enough for them and that doing an extra week of marching band is not desirable.

 

One of the main reasons we saw what we saw at the Super Regional this year was because this was a Non-6A UIL State year.  Programs were free to explore visual ideas that they would not normally risk during a State year.  The Eight Minute Rule was not a factor as these 6A programs began putting together musical repertoires.  On State years, you usually see more "buttoned-up" visual concepts since the UIL system really focuses on polish and cleanliness.

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I think the ultra competitiveness at the top in SA is causing the opposite effect. I think we are seeing more of a trend of Texas bands choosing to finish their season at non Texas Super regionals then non Texas bands coming to SA. The chance of making finals and performing twice is better for some really great Texas bands in Atlanta, Indy, St Louis or California.

 

I can only recall 4 or 5 bands making the trip to SA in the last 6 years while Texas has 4-6 bands attend out of state super regionals every year recently.

 

I would love to see more non Texas bands come to SA but I just don’t think it will happen.

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Irrelevant? Never. But the quality of TX bands has grown a lot in the last 15 years. TX is more competitive than ever which is great! Like Dan said earlier, it's unlikely you'll see a slew of bands suddenly coming to SA. Heck, I hear all the time how bands in TX don't go to some contests cause it is too far away in their own state, it's just as far for a lot bands outside of it too then lol. SA isn't exactly a border city after all. Still, I think it would be great if more bands went to give even more variety to it.

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I highly doubt that the flood gates will open and you will suddenly see a ton of big name programs from out of state show up at the San Antonio Super Regional.  Even though San Antonio is freakin' awesome, it is still just a Super Regional and Grand Nationals still has the allure of being hosted in the Marching Band Capital of The World.  Grand Nationals won't lose its level of awesomeness because of the sheer variety of bands, both stylistically and geographically, that attend.  

 

In turn, there are some really awesome Texas programs that you may never see at Grand Nationals.  You'd be surprised how many programs in Texas feel that the Super Regional is enough for them and that doing an extra week of marching band is not desirable.

 

One of the main reasons we saw what we saw at the Super Regional this year was because this was a Non-6A UIL State year.  Programs were free to explore visual ideas that they would not normally risk during a State year.  The Eight Minute Rule was not a factor as these 6A programs began putting together musical repertoires.  On State years, you usually see more "buttoned-up" visual concepts since the UIL system really focuses on polish and cleanliness.

I agree that the pageantry of Grand Nats and the venue itself will continue to draw huge crowds and I don't mean to diminish the event - I know that there are a number of growing Texas programs that have done well in SA that have never been to Grand Nats and may never go - 

I would dispute the notion that being a non-6A state year was a big impact - we saw a number of Texas 6A Bands that went to Grand Nats last year that may return again next year during a state year.but all valid points that we will have see how it plays out next year

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I think the ultra competitiveness at the top in SA is causing the opposite effect. I think we are seeing more of a trend of Texas bands choosing to finish their season at non Texas Super regionals then non Texas bands coming to SA. The chance of making finals and performing twice is better for some really great Texas bands in Atlanta, Indy, St Louis or California.

 

I can only recall 4 or 5 bands making the trip to SA in the last 6 years while Texas has 4-6 bands attend out of state super regionals every year recently.

 

I would love to see more non Texas bands come to SA but I just don’t think it will happen.

just looking at the last year - Haltom, Cedar Ridge and Westwood ventured out to Atlanta and St Louis for Super Regionals - and 2 of the 3 still came to San Antonio with CR in Finals

 

you are correct - SA is usually Texas bands - but will that change? BA does not go to GN every year - when will they make a trip to SA? American Fork, Blue Ridge, Dobyns-Bennett, Union - all could make the trip to SA .

 

just as we may see more Texas bands making the trip to Midland and McAllen for the chance at a finals or medal - I think that SA will start to see more Non-Texas bands making the trek to the lone star state

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I understand that the Grand Nationals brings a different crowd -  and that SA is not the ideal location to compete

I also understand that is a week later than SA - but for most bands, that week is spent in travel - not rehearsing

 

in 2013

Round Rock went from 10th in SA to 4th in GNats

Marcus went from 8th to 5th

 

in 2014 Flomo went from 13th in SA to 6th in GNats

 

in 2015 Hebron, TWHS, Round Rock and Keller all moved up in GNats finals compared to SA finals 

 

in 2016 Cedar Park and Reagan both moved up in GNats

 

in 2017 Avon, Marcus, FloMo, TWHS and Round Rock all moved up in GNats finals - including Round Rock not making finals in SA but finishing 12th in GNats.

 

Just throwing it our there that San Antonio has become more competitive without the title of Grand Nats - will there be a time that winning San Antonio becomes more for a band than the GNats

 

If there is any value in the Hornrank - which there is with kids that are not going to GNats - #1 and #2 last year did not attend GNats

 

appreciate your thoughts

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The priorities of programs like Broken Arrow and Tarpon Springs (and Union) make it such that San Antonio is very unlikely. Carmel and Blue Springs are much more likely to return. Schools like Dobyns-Bennett or Homestead or Marian Catholic don’t have the resources financially to make a Texas trip. I can’t see Castle making a trip, but not necessarily due to financial reasons either (Southern Indiana is far from rich, but Castle doesn’t draw from a poor area either). And Wando just doesn’t travel, but they have the resources to come if they wanted.

 

Homestead has the resources for that kind of trip. But it would pretty much require them to miss ISSMA which is something that I don't really ever see them doing. They do have a 30+ year streak to maintain after all!

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I wouldn't be surprised if major non Texas programs continue to attend at about the same rate they have been lately (1 every other year or so- blue springs in 13, owasso in 15, Avon in 17) though I'd imagine some of those will be repeats. It'd be cool to see BA come in a year they skip nationals though i think it might conflict with their state championships? I'm not sure, but either way, grand nats will continue to be the premier marching contest even if SA can boast a more competitive group of finalists.

 

What I do think we will absolutely continue to see, per jacksons post, is more and more Texas groups heading St. Louis and Atlanta, but also the 3 major Oklahoma invitationals, the blue Springs contest, and perhaps even the socal regional ala Carmel this year. Texas is so crowded that excellent groups that aren't guaranteed competitive success in Texas given the extreme level of competition will branch out to other parts of the country to get the recognition they deserve- I encourage it.

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I think that all this sounds great, however living in a District than cannot afford its Football teams to go over 200 miles in non-district games, I doubt that many districts that have the same situations of limited funds are not going to look forward to their Bands going to contests 300 or more miles away when there are many contests available in the local areas. The schools that travel are those who have fairly affluent population areas to draw from. 

 

Lets face it there are about 200 Bands at best in TX that do BOA, another 70 probably do USBands.  That means that almost 1100 HS Bands do neither of these contests. Do I think this is going to Change, No. Our Administration says we have plenty of contests within a 100 mile radius. And that is what we and most schools of TX live with it. BOA draws those who are affluent enough to afford it. 

 

In regards to OK Bands. The Oklahoma Band Masters Association several years ago went with BOA rules and Judging. Since that time OK has added several Bands to its top 5 or 6 that can compete out of State. The List, Broken Arrow, Owasso, Union, Jenks, Mustang and Bixby. The fact is though that only BA has consistently defeated TX Bands.  LD Bell won at Union this fall beating Owasso  pretty handily. The results of BOA Grand Nationals show that with the exception of BA, OK Bands are not really ready on take on the Best Bands of TX.   I doubt many of them will cross the red River.  It should be noted that OBA Class 6A is made up of 24 schools with enrollments of 750 students and above. Their is definitely a size difference and monetary difference between the two states. 

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The internet is a powerful thing.  A lot of people witnessed the unusually positive experience that Avon had coming down to Texas including directors from other schools, despite Avon probably not getting the placement they would've liked.  I could see other directors wanting that for their own students and attempting a similar trip to SA.  The only barrier being that making finals at San Antonio is soooo tough, and making finals really is important for that quality of experience the same way making Finals at GN is for the Texas bands that elect to go.

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The internet is a powerful thing.  A lot of people witnessed the unusually positive experience that Avon had coming down to Texas including directors from other schools, despite Avon probably not getting the placement they would've liked.  I could see other directors wanting that for their own students and attempting a similar trip to SA.  The only barrier being that making finals at San Antonio is soooo tough, and making finals really is important for that quality of experience the same way making Finals at GN is for the Texas bands that elect to go.

very good insight - appreciated - to your point, I think the positive experience that Avon shared may increase the travels - great points by all, just throwing it out there and by no means saying that Gnats would go away -but to others points - "many bands see the SR as the end of their season, and if that SR offers more competition, why would we spend the money to go to grand nats - again, not that GNats may become less significant, but that San Antonio may become more significant for those that want to compete at a high level and not spend $2K per student

 

appreciate everyone's thoughtful conversation

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  • 1 month later...

The internet is a powerful thing.  A lot of people witnessed the unusually positive experience that Avon had coming down to Texas including directors from other schools, despite Avon probably not getting the placement they would've liked.  I could see other directors wanting that for their own students and attempting a similar trip to SA.  The only barrier being that making finals at San Antonio is soooo tough, and making finals really is important for that quality of experience the same way making Finals at GN is for the Texas bands that elect to go.

So - Based on the Bold - Red statements above - does that mean that making finals for a major program is more difficult in San Antonio than in Grand Nats?  I am not asking about bands that are not Medalist/Finalist in other regionals - I would understand their concern on making finals - but more for the bands that are serious contenders (such as AVON) to compete in San Antonio

I think the recent change to BOA rules that will allow for up to 80 bands to compete in a Super Regional was designed for the San Antonio Event - lets see what 2018 Super Regional Event reveals 

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So - Based on the Bold - Red statements above - does that mean that making finals for a major program is more difficult in San Antonio than in Grand Nats?  I am not asking about bands that are not Medalist/Finalist in other regionals - I would understand their concern on making finals - but more for the bands that are serious contenders (such as AVON) to compete in San Antonio

I think the recent change to BOA rules that will allow for up to 80 bands to compete in a Super Regional was designed for the San Antonio Event - lets see what 2018 Super Regional Event reveals 

 

To your question regarding making finals at SA vs GN - I would say no. I think finals at GN is more difficult as there are 2 fewer spots and the competition level matches and usually exceeds SA at the top (generally, but there can be exceptions of course, such as 2017).

 

I think MFA was clear that the extension to 80 bands was significantly directed to San Antonio. As I recall, they addressed that directly in their announcement by making a statement about the demand, especially at San Antonio. 2018 will also be different with the overall reduction of Super Regionals by 1, which also very likely played a major factor. Will bands that would have gone to Atlanta now go to Indy or St. Louis instead? Or maybe SA? What will Tarpon Springs do? They could come to SA and potentially win, and almost certainly make finals. I think they won't since it is a GN year for them, so only 1 big trip most likely, but it would be interesting if they did.

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I think MFA was clear that the extension to 80 bands was significantly directed to San Antonio. As I recall, they addressed that directly in their announcement by making a statement about the demand, especially at San Antonio. 2018 will also be different with the overall reduction of Super Regionals by 1, which also very likely played a major factor. Will bands that would have gone to Atlanta now go to Indy or St. Louis instead? Or maybe SA? What will Tarpon Springs do? They could come to SA and potentially win, and almost certainly make finals. I think they won't since it is a GN year for them, so only 1 big trip most likely, but it would be interesting if they did.

 

We may not see much Texas representation at the St. Louis Super Regional because Area Saturday is the same weekend this coming year.  Atlanta was cut because of the expensive of renting the stadium along with not being able to fill two days worth of Prelims.  The addition of the Florida regional will help give those programs who would have gone to Atlanta another option.  

 

I would not be shocked if San Antonio hit 80 programs in 2018.  There were 68 programs last year so you'd just have to add one more block to hit 80.  If Tarpon ever comes down, and that's a long shot, the opportunity is much more likely since Atlanta is scrapped.  And yes, they would have to come down on a non-Grand Nationals year.  If they do so in 2019, I'll cry happy tears.    

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We may not see much Texas representation at the St. Louis Super Regional because Area Saturday is the same weekend this coming year.  Atlanta was cut because of the expensive of renting the stadium along with not being able to fill two days worth of Prelims.  The addition of the Florida regional will help give those programs who would have gone to Atlanta another option.  

 

I would not be shocked if San Antonio hit 80 programs in 2018.  There were 68 programs last year so you'd just have to add one more block to hit 80.  If Tarpon ever comes down, and that's a long shot, the opportunity is much more likely since Atlanta is scrapped.  And yes, they would have to come down on a non-Grand Nationals year.  If they do so in 2019, I'll cry happy tears.    

 

I didn't even think about Tarpon coming to SA now that Atlanta is cut... San Antonio gets better every year. 

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